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#12
03-09-2007, 06:16 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Raising the flop does nothing for you [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. It gets more money into the pot when we have the best hand. I raise this flop for value 90% of the time. [/ QUOTE ] Would you agree more if you had QQ or JJ? b 
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#13
03-09-2007, 06:18 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair??? [/ QUOTE ] ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play. b [/ QUOTE ] ...or you can just let them have free cards.
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#14
03-09-2007, 06:28 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair??? [/ QUOTE ] ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play. b [/ QUOTE ] ...or you can just let them have free cards. [/ QUOTE ] There was a bet on the flop. No free card was given. b
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#15
03-09-2007, 06:44 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair??? [/ QUOTE ] ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play. b [/ QUOTE ] ...or you can just let them have free cards. [/ QUOTE ] There was a bet on the flop. No free card was given. b [/ QUOTE ] OK. How about cheap cards then. The only logical way I could come up with for not jamming this flop w/KK is if I wanted to keep the pot small for whatever reason (and this pot isn't that small...). Maybe if I was sure somebody out flopped me & I was considering folding if the turn was another str8/flush/scare card...then I guess just calling might be okay. But a vast majority of the time this is a raise or fold situation.
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#16
03-09-2007, 06:52 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
I'm sorta mixed on this one. On the one hand, it seems like a good time to wait for a safe card and also get multiple bets in on the big streets.
On the other hand, players in this game tend to go ape-[censored] on the flop with surprisingly little. It'd be great to get a naked 6, a heart draw, or overcards to get into a dumb raising war and let you raise-cap this flop. Also, most of these players are surprisingly good (bad?) at calling one turn bet and folding for one more. If the turn goes bet, call, raise, I wouldn't be too shocked to see you take it down right there (especially with your image). I also think that MP may call many flop bets with her overcards, but might check-fold the turn when she misses. So I think just raising the flop is the way to go. Give yourself a chance to jump into the middle of a flop raising circus with the best hand. As played, I think you have to 3-bet this turn. MP isn't likely to slowplay a big hand on the flop - I think she'll have AQ or a hand like 99 most of the time here. She calls the flop bet because she thinks UTG is FOS, but she's scared of you having a huge hand. You've represented AK pretty well here, so she probably thinks she's good and raising with the best hand. Make BB or UTG pay through the nose with a 6 or a heart draw and expect MP to call you down because that's usually what she does when she gets this far and has a showdownable hand (assuming she's tilting a bit, which seems to be most of the time). If UTG has a straight, so be it. I think most of the time he'll cap the turn with it, and you can get away from it and it'll cost you the same as calling down.
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#17
03-09-2007, 07:18 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
A lots of loose players will throw in a flop call with an awful hand & then habitually throw it away on the turn.If you don't raise them on the flop,you're not going to get any more money out of them.Besides.the extra bets that you get in the pot from these players on the flop is 'pure'because these hands don't win very often.
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#18
03-09-2007, 07:21 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] IMO, you need to hammer that flop. 4 way action on the flop with a possible str8 out there & you just call with an overpair??? [/ QUOTE ] ummm...yeah. It's actually not a bad play. b [/ QUOTE ] ...or you can just let them have free cards. [/ QUOTE ] There was a bet on the flop. No free card was given. b [/ QUOTE ] OK. How about cheap cards then. The only logical way I could come up with for not jamming this flop w/KK is if I wanted to keep the pot small for whatever reason (and this pot isn't that small...). [/ QUOTE ] The bigger the pot, the more likely I'm waiting for the turn. I could go either way with KK on this one. Waiting to the turn is valid. Would you also jam this flop with QQ or JJ? If you do, don't say it's because you're charging (good)draws as that's not why you should be jamming it. b
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#19
03-09-2007, 07:59 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Raising the flop does nothing for you [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. It gets more money into the pot when we have the best hand. I raise this flop for value 90% of the time. [/ QUOTE ] I believe the full sentence was "Raising the flop does nothing for you if you're trying to make draws pay which was in response to the poster saying that you were giving cheap cards to draws. Your raise for value is not necessarily a bad play, but not really directly a response to what I said. Anyway, enough nittiness. I understand pumping the flop to try to increase the pot for value but isn't this a situation straight out of HPFAP? Waiting for the bigger street to raise because the raise on the flop will fold nobody? Anyone with a legit draw has odds regardless, and a raise on the flop doesn't even make it incorrect for gutshots to draw at you. If a straight card or flush card was going to come and beat you, then you had no shot anyway. However, now you've gotten to put a lot of bets in on a big street - more money in the pot plus weaker draws that could still beat you don't have odds to call. If you raise the flop, isn't there a good chance people will check to you on turn and then all you get is 1 BB on turn from everybody? If this is a table where it's crazy and raises are going in and people are going to the river no matter what then I agree that we just pump and pray.
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#20
03-09-2007, 08:11 PM
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Re: 3-bet the Turn with KK on a draw heavy board.
ok people,
another question is what to do when BB calls 3 cold and UTG caps the turn. Fold because we only have one out against a set (if BB has hearts) or Call because a few cards might help us win this big pot(like the 5c) At this I'm getting over 20-1 but I will have to call another bet on the river, so maybe it's really only 10-1. Is that how I should think about it?
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