nl 100 Help me improve my JJ play - Page 2

Unknown Soldier · #11 03-09-2007, 12:33 PM

not alot of point he isn't going to call much w/ 2 overs. Could bet like 20 into a 60 pot, but it looks so weak that it could induce a crai bluff which you can't call.

Chaos_ult · #12 03-09-2007, 12:36 PM

Why are we calling the flop just to fold to a turn blank?

Is it because his range gets more narrow now that he's bet the turn?

I think if you're calling the flop here, you have to call the turn sometimes.

Unknown Soldier · #13 03-09-2007, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you're calling the flop here, you have to call the turn sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

you beat nothing except a bluff. Alot of villains will cbet AK/AQ on this board and shut down when called. If he fires the turn again you're ahead so rarely.

Chaos_ult · #14 03-09-2007, 12:42 PM

I think calling the flop just to take it away on the turn really turns JJ into a bluff itself a lot of the time. You can do the same thing with ATC...and it gets really interesting if villain has a tendency to checkraise the turn with overpairs here.

Chaos_ult · #15 03-09-2007, 12:50 PM

I think what I'm getting at is the fact that you have to be willing to 4-bet shove with a pretty wide range when you're facing a villain with a propensity to 3-bet your button opens.

Giving villain a pretty standard 3-bet range from the BB when facing a button open:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

104,450,544 games 0.030 secs 3,481,684,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.321% 46.33% 00.99% 48393984 1033273.00 { JdJh }
Hand 1: 52.679% 51.69% 00.99% 53990014 1033273.00 { TT+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ }

We're about a coinflip. So I suppose i'm stating the obvious when I say that a lot of JJ's hand strength is realized preflop.

Grunch · #16 03-09-2007, 01:26 PM

LOL except for the datamined stats, this villan could be me.

Push or fold the flop. He's not double barreling you with bad money. This push wants a fold, but doesn't mind a call.

Assuming of course it actually is me...

grando · #17 03-09-2007, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Push or fold the flop. He's not double barreling you with bad money. This push wants a fold, but doesn't mind a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

pushing the flop is so bad - OMG OVERPAIR ALL IN

you succeed in folding out hands you beat while getting hands that beat you to call

if you fold the turn it's a good hand

AnthonyH · #18 03-09-2007, 02:22 PM

How would this situation change if your image is LAG? Would we be more willing to get it in on the flop knowing the villan will call off lighter? If we put Tx and 99 into the villans calling range, will a flop shove be profitable?

IsaacAsimov · #19 03-11-2007, 11:03 AM

I'm glad to see I received so many replys. Thx for all the insightfull comments.

"I think calling the flop just to take it away on the turn really turns JJ into a bluff itself a lot of the time. You can do the same thing with ATC...and it gets really interesting if villain has a tendency to checkraise the turn with overpairs here. " - Chaos Ult

I usually do bet in these spots, cause I don't like giving AK or AQ a chance to hit one of there outs and outdraw me, I also believe it is higher variance to check the turn in this spot. Does anyone else bet the turn with this reasoning?

@ AnthonyH

Against the average solid player @ NL 100 as I think villain is in this case, I don't think being a bit laggy changes too much to his range against you. He still isn't shoving with air (AK, AQ), he might be willing to stack off with TT, but I think thats about it.

I have been thinking about 4betting this preflop and analyzing villains reaction. I think if villain is really tight (wouldn't shove lesser than QQ against a 4 bet), we are giving our self a chance to get away cheaply from the hand. Against players who 3bet alot from the blinds, one could just 4bet shove JJ+.