Standard play? 78s first in.

[fretelöo]

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Yes, this thinking (raising gives me better odds to draw to my GS) has convinced me lately to ALWAYS cap the flop if I have a gutshot

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Yes, that's great. For the final bet you put in on the flop you get really great odds. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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So, clearly, two veterans agreeing = awesome play! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Pondy]

Thanks for the advice, i get myself a copy.
I currently play guided by Lee Jones 'winning low limit holdem' which is also a great book.

Real reason i posted this post was because I have seen this play in Higher Limit cash games, and wondered what the net effect would be in lower limit games. However we are talking a different level of skill and possibly thinking regarding the players involved.

I'm guessing from the (sarcastic) replies that these kind of plays at low level are not worth the bother, and I'll stick to my current strategy at this level.

[fretelöo]

I would assume you mean NL cash games? There, it's a different story as your implied odds are a lot better.

Bloating the pot to give you odds to draw is a losing strategy at any level, though.

Just to rub this in: What exactly are you doing when you're drawing, getting the correct odds (i.e. are you trying to maximize your winnings, or are you trying to minimize your losses).

[Pondy]

No, infact it was a High Stakes Limit table (100/200).

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Just to rub this in: What exactly are you doing when you're drawing, getting the correct odds (i.e. are you trying to maximize your winnings, or are you trying to minimize your losses).

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If were talking about post flop, and for example I've flopped a NUT or 2nd NUT flush draw I'm betting and raising to get as much in the pot as poss, maximizing my winnings.

I generally play ABC poker, and if the flop hits me quite hard (i'm talking top pair upwards including draws) I'm charging people as much as possible to come along.

I minimize my losses by not playing trash pre flop or calling bets and raises after the flop with air hoping to hit top pair on the river etc. Also laying down a good hand when I know I'm beaten is not a problem.

I havent read SSHE but intend to, I have read many times over Lee Jones book, and his guide is the one I use, which is being a total TAG. No fancy plays etc at this level.

The original post was just a thought, and also wondered if anyone does that play at this level.

[fretelöo]

No, that's not what I meant.

Assume you have a gutshot on the flop. Five people in the pot, you're in LP and the pot has 10SB (so you had 2 limpers and for whatever reason you chose to raise your 45s and the blinds came along [I know that's different from your example, but bear with me - I'm primarily concerned about the math here]). When the action comes to you, it's 14SB and one for you to call. That's 14:1 in pot odds and seeing that you'll make your hand roughly 1:10 times, you call.
On the turn, pot is 15SB = 7.5BB. Again one bet and all call, you'll get 11.5:1 for your call. Again, since that's better than the 10:1 you need, you call.

However, that is minimizing your losses!

On the flop, your equity is roughly 1/11 (assuming you only win with your GS and you're always winning if you hit), as you'll win with 4/47 cards of the deck, that being roughly 1/11 or 1:10. But you're putting in more than that - you're putting in 1/5 of the money. Since you're puttin in more than your share of the pot, you're losing money. You're losing less, though than just folding. By simply folding, you simply would have lost those full 2SB from your preflop-investment. By calling that bet on the flop, you'll miss ~ 10 times and hit one time. Since the pre-flop error is done and over and can't influence your play from that point on, you're losing 1SB 10 times and winning 15SB (plus potentially further bets on turn and river). So, you're making a "profit", but that "profit" only minimizes the loss you generate by raising 45s in the first place.

Same applies for the turn and generally for all drawing hands.

[Ampelmann]

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Real reason i posted this post was because I have seen this play in Higher Limit cash games,

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In higher limit games, you can sometimes open raise middle suited connectors from early or middle position for deception. HEPFAP suggests even to 3-bet hands like 87s in LP occationally for deception. This deception is important against opponents that are rather good at observing your style, putting you on hand ranges, and then trying to steal from you. Be aware that these are small theoretical mistakes made in order to entice others to make bigger mistakes. (Play like this is even more important in NL, since there you're mistakes preflop and on the flop typically are really small compared to the others' mistakes on turn and river; in LHE deception is necessary, but not as important since you don't have huge bets on later streets to punish your opponents.)

In the micros, where most people aren't very aware and don't try to put you on hand ranges very often (and where many don't think at all about what you might have), deception is not necessary, since they're making mistakes anyway.

[OziBattler]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A-mans posts

Pondy, it is very rarely correct to open limp in MP/LP. If your hand is good enough to play then raise it. I fold 78s when folded to me in MP because I generally play juicy games which make me not want to raise and get cold called with a low suited connector.

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I havent read SSHE but intend to, I have read many times over Lee Jones book, and his guide is the one I use, which is being a total TAG. No fancy plays etc at this level

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call me a nit but LLH isnt "total tag" poker...whatever that is .... but you are right in that it doesnt endorse too many fancy plays and that ABC poker wins the money in most non-nit online games. SSHE and other such books add a new level the the so called ABC lines. FWIW I cut my teeth on LLH and I think it is a great book but SSHE will take you to the next level...just beware as it is easy to misapply as it involves pushing smaller edges further than LLH does.

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I'm guessing from the (sarcastic) replies that these kind of plays at low level are not worth the bother, and I'll stick to my current strategy at this level.

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yep, thats pretty much it. To be honest, when I see someone open limp in middle/late position Im probably not going to think they are a very good player which might work in their favour (of course, I'll also have my HUD running so I wont be fooled for long [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

[Ampelmann]

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Pondy, it is very rarely correct to open limp

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FYP

[Pondy]

I much appreciate you showing me the maths, and your first paragraph is exactly the way i would of played a GS (if i was drunk enough to even contemplate playing 45s). I do find though that when i'm sitting at a full table of say 9 players that 6 or 7 of them probably dont think that deep at this level. More of a case of "Excellant, I've got A10 (UTG)".

[OziBattler]

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Pondy, it is very rarely correct to open limp

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FYP

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[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] well I edited my post ...FWIW I didnt include EP only because there are hand (eg of the speculative type) that we can limp in EP in the right games but as soon as we start getting towards MP the number of potential limpers falls so EP limps can become raises or folds. meh, no biggie.