2 very basic Stud 8 3rd st ?'s--

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Your correct to muck them in both spots. The flush draw is playable in late position when you know you will likely only have to pay one bet to see 4th street.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I know who played the hands, I'm 99% sure it was absolutely fine. Both hands are playable by an expert because he is adjusting to the game conditions. Sure both hands have inherent risks, but in the hands of a player who reads hands well and understand table textures you can open up your range.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[SweetLuckyMe]

Depends on how the table is playing and how short handed it is. Particularly the queens, depends on who's holding the ace that's out. For instance, if it's a maniac with the ace then I'm much more apt to play the queens, but not the 3 suited cards. Different table dynamics deliver all kinds of different opportunities to add to your expectation.

I'm not real apt to play either of them at a typical table, but if I did I wouldn't play either one without coming in for a raise, unless there were a maniac or a very live one in the hand, then I may limp. At a tightish table with more than 4 sitting both are easy folds - again, coming in for a raise if they're played at all - you've got to have 2 ways to win on 4th (by you catching scary or by them catching bricks and by you actually showing down the best hand) to make them typically profitable. The 10-5-3 suited is quite a bit more playable at a multiway passive table, but you want all the suit and gaps live, and you want to be certain you'll get paid off, else it's just not playable - and you have to catch perfect on 4th to continu (what constitutes "perfect" will vary depending on the competition - a baby of your suit is obviously ideal, or an apparent brick of a ten will allow you to punish the right people under the right circumstances).

I guess the point is, you had better be very good at reading players and hands for either one to be playable. If you're good you'll lose money by *not* playing them under the right situations. And if you're average/bad you'll likely lose money by ever playing either one. Kind of the same dynamic that allows a good player to profitably limp in late with a brick pair and a baby upcard under the right circumstances.

[BK1248]

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both are mucks in a tough game.

both are playable in a passive game.

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Agree with this. Also since I'm 90% sure Joe Tall played these in a deucescracked video, I thought the first one was in a shorthanded situation but can't remember for sure. The second one was super live in a proven loose passive game so clearly I think the first one is more debateable.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

the first one xqq was joetall, the second was from pokerfox.net

both games were passive but not short. I dont like qq with 2-3 lows to the flop tho, right?

[Wetdog]

Why don't we want 2 lows fighting it out? Of course we'd rather scoop, but we get half the loser's action.

[BK1248]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't we want 2 lows fighting it out? Of course we'd rather scoop, but we get half the loser's action.

[/ QUOTE ]

we dont want to get in the middle of lo's jamming, qq isnt a lock for half, vs 2 lo's ur hand is crap.

[Alchemist]

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Why don't we want 2 lows fighting it out? Of course we'd rather scoop, but we get half the loser's action.

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we dont want to get in the middle of lo's jamming, qq isnt a lock for half, vs 2 lo's ur hand is crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention low hands that continue to catch good can easily make straights and flushes. UI big pairs are much easier to chase down in stud than in hold'em and getting freerolled sucks.

[Grasshopp3r]

xQQ is strong on 4th when you are against lows that don't improve. 5th, you need to start worrying about rough two pair opponents and on 6th and 7th, you need to have at least 2 pr. xQQ gets chased down by 7th if it does not improve.

Against A23s (the best starter in S8), QQx is only a 43/57 dog. If the A23s does not catch on 4th and becomes A23T and the xQQ catches an offsuit K, the queens are a 57/43 favorite and the lows are starting to get thin. On 5th, if the low has bricked on 4th and 5th, you are getting into 75/25 territory.

[Beavis68]

I would take AAA over A23s all day long.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I would take AAA over A23s all day long.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ohhhh yeah.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2487571
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 ad ah ac - as 2d 3d - 2h 3c 4s - 2c 4c 5c
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac Ad Ah 71409 382692 117304 4 4434 6313 28 0.455
As 3d 2d 16408 22281 477585 134 198490 56219 28 0.223
4s 3c 2h 17241 21812 477520 668 121742 80742 3038 0.146
5c 4c 2c 31611 72478 426852 670 93100 87660 3038 0.176 </pre><hr />

even vs. just A23 single suited its a monster 62% equity hog.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Joe Tall]

I kinda remember the hand off the top of my head and I said something like it's "marginal" at best. Funny thing is, I folded QxQ today in the same situation. Are you sure I wasn't (QQ)x in the video?