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#12
03-05-2007, 02:46 AM
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Re: Interesting question that I\'m not sure has been answered
[ QUOTE ]
AA b [/ QUOTE ] That's definitly the hand most likely to make the nuts, since there are a large number of ways to arrange the board where it makes a nut set, quads, flush, or straight. Most likely to make the 2nd nuts, however, is a bit of a puzzle (at least to me...) 
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#13
03-05-2007, 02:54 AM
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Re: Interesting question that I\'m not sure has been answered
I think the answer depends on your definition of nuts. Basically do you mean the best possible hand or a hand that is certainly the best? For example, if you have say KT of spades and the board is 6789 all spades then most would say that you have the nuts, but if you asked what the (absolute) nuts are on a 6789 all spades board they will say JT of spades.
I suspect that the OP is thinking about the conditional definition (the nuts given what you hold) and believe that the answer is ATs. There is no advantage to AKs over ATs - any flush will still be the nuts, they make the same nut straights, straight flushes, four of a kind and boats. ATs will do better as it makes more (nut) straight flushes - 6789, 789J, 89JQ,JQK versus TJQ. Thinking about absolute nuts I agree that it's almost certainly AK. You have a lot of nut flushes (as long as a straight flush isn't possible), broadway straights, and both four of a kinds. I think the second nut question is probably something like K8s. You want the Kxs to get the second nut flushes in there, and the 8s allows for more one-card straights. You don't want to use two broadway cards because they would always make the nut straight if both cards were used. Also, the one card straight is very often the second nuts. edit: actually, thinking about it the 8 probably isn't important. If the board is 279TJ then the second nuts will be Q8 so that wouldn't count. So just thinking of straights, with K8s you would have the second nuts with 4567, 5679, 679T, 9TJQ. With K9s you would have the second-nut straight with 5678, 678T, 78TJ, TJQ. With KT you would have the nut straight with 6789, 789J, 9TJQ which is less combos and they are less likely due to the counterfeit 10. So basically, I think the most second-nuts hands are Kxs where x is 5-9.
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#14
03-05-2007, 03:27 AM
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Re: Interesting question that I\'m not sure has been answered
I meant the absolute nuts where you're certain your hand is best and the absolute second nuts where there is only one specific two-card combination that can defeat your hand.
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#15
03-05-2007, 03:29 AM
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Re: Interesting question that I\'m not sure has been answered
I never thought about your conditional definition: that might complicate things a bit (you mean by this where you do not actually hold the actual absolute nuts but you do hold a card making it impossible for a different two-card combination to form the absolute nuts, correct?)
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#16
03-05-2007, 03:42 AM
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Re: Interesting question that I\'m not sure has been answered
[ QUOTE ]
I never thought about your conditional definition: that might complicate things a bit (you mean by this where you do not actually hold the actual absolute nuts but you do hold a card making it impossible for a different two-card combination to form the absolute nuts, correct?) [/ QUOTE ] Right. For example, on a monotone 2378Q board the absolute nuts are AK of that suit. You would, however, have what most would call the nuts if you had say A5 of that suit. edit: another example AK would be considered the nuts on an AAK.. board even though AA would obviously make the best possible hand.
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#18
03-05-2007, 02:19 PM
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Re: Interesting question that I\'m not sure has been answered
the seemingly obvious answer to me is JTs, since straights are much more common than flushes, but I might be wrong.
I don't know about the second-best nut making hand... K9s?
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#19
03-05-2007, 02:44 PM
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Re: Interesting question that I\'m not sure has been answered
i respect the posters who put forward AA, so maybe i'm wrong...
but how often does AA make the nuts? .. it wins alot, but with top pair, set or two pair, but very often it WON'T be the nuts, just a winning hand. pair or two pair (i.e. pair on board) can never be the nuts.
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#20
03-05-2007, 05:44 PM
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Re: Interesting question that I\'m not sure has been answered
[ QUOTE ]
i respect the posters who put forward AA, so maybe i'm wrong... but how often does AA make the nuts? .. it wins alot, but with top pair, set or two pair, but very often it WON'T be the nuts, just a winning hand. pair or two pair (i.e. pair on board) can never be the nuts. [/ QUOTE ] There are a huge number of boards that make AA the nuts. The nuts is going to be one of the following hands: Set FH (rarely) Quads Straight Flush Straight flush Of those, by far the most common is top set, because you can arrange an uncoordinated board so darn many ways. This factor in and of itself means that no unpaired hand can possibly make the most nuts, and A is obviously most likely to make top set since A is most likely to be top card on board. So AA already has a commanding lead, and all non-pair hands are 100% out of the running. AA makes as many quads as any other pair. It makes fewer nut straights (and straight flushes) than say TT, but makes FAR more nut flushes which more than makes up for that. Hence AA makes the most nuts. The top set issue is really the heart of it.
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