2+2 Heresy - YOU SHOULD ALWAYS BUY IN SHORT

[RAHZero]

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To those saying EV+ but trivial...probably true

To those saying buy in full because you might get a good hand...I think that either shows you don't understand position or you are a 400NL player slumming on the 10NL tables.

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Hmm, given the initial post, I think you might not be understanding positional disadvantage correctly. For a good post-flop player, playing in the blinds should only be -EV because of the forced blind. Look at your long-term PT stats. You're likely losing money in the BB and SB, but your difference w/o blind should be in the green. This means that were you not forced to post, you would make money from these spots despite being OOP. Most of this money comes from capitalizing off of big hands, big pocket pairs and sets where you have the chance to stack your opponent. By posting the BB and SB with a short stack, you do not reduce your positional disadvantage. You can no longer call raises for set value, and correct short-stack strategy would have you playing extremely tight OOP, which means your long-term net per hand from the BB and SB would approach the sum of the blinds. By playing with a full stack, you have the opportunity to occasionally win a big pot, and thus your loss per hand in the blinds is quite a bit less than the actual amount required to post.

[Gelford]

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To those saying EV+ but trivial...probably true

To those saying buy in full because you might get a good hand...I think that either shows you don't understand position or you are a 400NL player slumming on the 10NL tables.

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I am not good at statistics, but intuitively this seems flawed.

The thing is, that you have to pay the blind no matter what, so that fixed.

While you have a positional disadvantage making the range of hands that are playable smaller, I have a feeling (without checking, lost my database, when my harddisk went dead on my around xmas) that hands like AA-QQ and maybe more (most pocketpairs?) are hugely profitable dispite the positional disadvantage

So what you are doing is keeping the fixed price to play (blinds have to be paid no matter what), but those few times that you get paid of, while rarely, you cut down on profit. (Cutting down on your SD)


I you want to compensate, then you can argue that you will play more TP kind of hands from the blinds ... and play them fast, which means hands like AJ and KQ ... also play hands like 99 and TT fast ..... just get as much in pf as you can and then bomb the flop.


Well ...... it seems like a lot of hassle for the sake of two hands, since you wont be short the remainings orbits.

[Jouster777]

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For a good post-flop player, playing in the blinds should only be -EV because of the forced blind. Look at your long-term PT stats. You're likely losing money in the BB and SB, but your difference w/o blind should be in the green. This means that were you not forced to post, you would make money from these spots despite being OOP.

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No, this means its EV+ to see flops for free (limped to BB) or for a cut rate (all other situations)

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Most of this money comes from capitalizing off of big hands, big pocket pairs and sets where you have the chance to stack your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]True but you make more money off your big pockets and sets from late position than from the blinds. (ok, I don't know what YOUR PT shows but this is true in general). When you have a big pair you aren't giving BTN odds to set mine against your AA. True, you don't have odds to set mine any more either but if you look at where you'd rather hit a set deep stacked against a big PP...BTN vs. blinds...you'll start to see my point.

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By posting the BB and SB with a short stack, you do not reduce your positional disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes it does. It is covered in NLHE Theory and Practice.

[Archon_Wing]

Push preflop. It will negate your positional disadvantage. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Jouster777]

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Push preflop. It will negate your positional disadvantage. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]That's exactly right!...that's pretty what short stack play is.

[Gelford]

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Push preflop. It will negate your positional disadvantage. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]That's exactly right!...that's pretty what short stack play is.

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Yes, but have you figure the times you have to reload and so miss the button into the equation ???

[Jouster777]

Ok...thought I'd revive this thread because almost the exact idea just appeared in HSNL. Similar HSNL thread

[ama0330]

Jouster,

I would say that the edge a decent player has against all opponents on the table at the micro stakes more than negates the disadvantage of playing out of position. By this, I mean that I would happily play a large amount of hands OOP against most opponents I come across at 25nl/50nl, and would rather do so with a full stack seeing as I am likely to get paid by a ton of worse hands postflop.

[kidpokeher]

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Ok...thought I'd revive this thread because almost the exact idea just appeared in HSNL. Similar HSNL thread

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The ratholer ratholed your theorem!

[delta k]

I shove my first SB every time to generate a great image, try to double up, and start on the button with a deep stack.