Question For Top Players

[Kaz The Original]

[ QUOTE ]
When playing high, there are several aspects of mental preservation that separate the small winners from the big winners. This manifests itself in several ways:

1. Losing on a "bad beat" is usually for a lot of money. In a limit game, the best players realize that it doesn't really matter and don't dwell on it, because you'll get it back on the next hand (or the next day). So much of your profit comes from isolating one or two weak players, that it really is just a matter of time that you get the money. This is one reason why I enjoy playing short so much. The same principles apply in NL, but the money is much greater, so it is often more difficult to disconnect, and it is possible that you won't get the money back very soon. Maybe the live one will clam up and eventually quit.

2. If you have been losing a good chunk, it's usually best to just quit for the day. Forget about it and go home. Zee made this point to me awhile ago, and he had several reasons that he can state if he wants. However, the long and the short of it is that it's the best advice that I've ever gotten.

3. The best players don't underestimate the bad players. 99% of the time, these live ones are somewhat tricky and can pull some stuff. That's not to say that you have to fear them (you shouldn't), but you should definately respect the fact that they ARE thinking about the game, their image, and their opponents. Granted, their thoughts are usually wrong, but you need to think about what they think about.

4. Sometimes you just need to show a bit of gamble in certain situations. You may be taking slightly the worst of it, but in the long-term, you aren't. If you beat your tilt-prone opponent, he will often blow off a lot of money. However, you need to make sure that you don't fall for this when it's done to you. You also need to be really careful when choosing these situations.

5. Be willing and able to play big pots. If the money is significant, then people start sqeezing really hard and make mistakes. Relish the big pots and you'll win more of them. When you lose them, don't worry about it. You'll get it back on the next hand.

6. You'll make mistakes. Don't worry about them afterwards. They are done with - you can't change them at all. Just don't make them again in the future, since that's all you can control.

On this board, there are several players who probably play much better than myself, but I doubt that many of them are better at not tilting than myself. These are kind of the things that I think about when I play. Plus, having a "dumb grin" all the time helps matters if you play live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gold.

[Matt Flynn]

Bruiser,

I tilt a lot. I rarely crazy monkey tilt. Plus my definition of tilt has to do with playing too aggressively, including in the biggest pots, which isn't that bad unless everyone catches on to you. It costs me, but not nearly as much as it costs people who make fundamental stack errors and so forth. Put it this way (as Tommy put it to me): working on your C game (both avoiding it and improving it) can really help your earn. My A game has improved as well, but a lot of the money is made in elevating and eliminating your C game.

The bad players are the least predictable sometimes and need strict attention. You want to know how the live one plays more than any other player at the table.

Matt

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to differentiate between the best player and the guy who wins the most money

[/ QUOTE ]


Not in my book. Not in my income tax return, either.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
When playing high, there are several aspects of mental preservation that separate the small winners from the big winners. This manifests itself in several ways:

1. Losing on a "bad beat" is usually for a lot of money. In a limit game, the best players realize that it doesn't really matter and don't dwell on it, because you'll get it back on the next hand (or the next day). So much of your profit comes from isolating one or two weak players, that it really is just a matter of time that you get the money. This is one reason why I enjoy playing short so much. The same principles apply in NL, but the money is much greater, so it is often more difficult to disconnect, and it is possible that you won't get the money back very soon. Maybe the live one will clam up and eventually quit.

2. If you have been losing a good chunk, it's usually best to just quit for the day. Forget about it and go home. Zee made this point to me awhile ago, and he had several reasons that he can state if he wants. However, the long and the short of it is that it's the best advice that I've ever gotten.

3. The best players don't underestimate the bad players. 99% of the time, these live ones are somewhat tricky and can pull some stuff. That's not to say that you have to fear them (you shouldn't), but you should definately respect the fact that they ARE thinking about the game, their image, and their opponents. Granted, their thoughts are usually wrong, but you need to think about what they think about.

4. Sometimes you just need to show a bit of gamble in certain situations. You may be taking slightly the worst of it, but in the long-term, you aren't. If you beat your tilt-prone opponent, he will often blow off a lot of money. However, you need to make sure that you don't fall for this when it's done to you. You also need to be really careful when choosing these situations.

5. Be willing and able to play big pots. If the money is significant, then people start sqeezing really hard and make mistakes. Relish the big pots and you'll win more of them. When you lose them, don't worry about it. You'll get it back on the next hand.

6. You'll make mistakes. Don't worry about them afterwards. They are done with - you can't change them at all. Just don't make them again in the future, since that's all you can control.

On this board, there are several players who probably play much better than myself, but I doubt that many of them are better at not tilting than myself. These are kind of the things that I think about when I play. Plus, having a "dumb grin" all the time helps matters if you play live.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is getting moved to the top of my favorite threads list

[J.A.Sucker]

There are lots of situations where point 4 comes in. Mainly they involve a situation where you are headsup, because only then are you really "gambling." If the pot is multiway, usually any action you are giving is justified since you'll end up with the pot headsup, and this is seldom a bad thing.

The most recent example of this was a hand agaisnt a guy who people have seen on the WPT and the World Series. He's terrible, though people here would be surprised to hear that if they knew who he was. I was playing 100-200 with him the other night and the flop was Qh-7c-3c or something. He bet, I raised, he reraised. At this point, I was ~ 95% certain that he had a queen. I just kept raising until he stopped (5 bets). Then, he checked on the turn, I bet and he called. He had 2 chips left. I bet them blind (from behind his position). I ended up hitting the Ac on the river, my KcJc was good, and he went ballistic. I will get action from that guy forever, and he won't be in as good of shape as he was on this hand. Plus, some others in the game see this and think I'm insane. This is also good. Now, I'm profiting from him and others.

This also connects with the point about playing big pots. People will often be afraid to play hands with you if they know in advance that a hand will cost a lot more. Otherwise tough, isolating, players will just ignore the marginal hands, and this lets you get away with more stuff. This is perhaps the biggest advantage that you can gain in a full ring game. Most people have a breaking point, and even some "fearless" players get tired of it after awhile, especially if you never seem to care either way about it. It drives them nuts.

You will also want to take the worst of it in short handed games if your opponent(s) are steamers. Usually, this is calling (or raising) on the flop with only a gutshot draw. If you hit, you get paid, their head explodes, and you can slaughter them over the next 10 hands or so. You aren't looking to make money on the hand alone, but on future hands. This is what most people DON'T GET when posting on this board. The high-stakes people do.

I NEVER tilt. I may get a little upset sometimes, but when I'm in the next hand, I'm fine. Sometimes I take a little walk, but then I'm good to go. There are times where I look like I'm a little steamed, but as Ray said, it's an act. Every once in awhile, I'll feel a little hot and I just rack up and go home.

I make plenty of dumb plays, but the errors I make are never pot-jeapordizing plays, they're just fractions of bets, so I don't worry about them.

[J.A.Sucker]

Thanks for the words Ray. See, I do listen to what you have to say, even after a bottle of the "finest" chianti. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[NiceCatch]

Not even close to a top player, but I noticed there was little mention of bankroll versus stakes. I personally find that I tilt far less (almost eliminate it) when I'm playing at a comfortable stakes level with relation to my bankroll. Then I can REALLY take the bad beats in stride, and actually appreciate them, because they give me information on who at the table will make bad decisions in big pots.

At it's core, tilting is all about perspective, isn't it? And making fundamental mistakes, even only every now and then, are just manifestations of losing perspective (assuming you know fundamentally correct play). It's impossible to play perfect poker without keeping the long-term goal in mind.

So maybe the key to eliminating mistakes is keeping proper perspective, and playing at a comfortable stakes level. Just my .02.

[greg nice]

i find when i play live, i rarely ever tilt. but after a few beats online i can get pretty steamed.

[Phat Mack]

Never going on tilt is an achievable goal. The first step is to observe yourself and all the people you play with, and and see how many types of tilt you can identify. There must be dozens. For example, we've all seen players tilt after a bad beat, but quite a few will tilt after winning with a couple of suckouts. Then it's a matter of identifying the events leading to tilts, and always being aware of them at the table.

The 2+2 poster I like to read about playing your best game is Tommy Angelo. I often speculate as to whether he has disciplined himself to always play his A game, or whether he designed his A game so that he could always play it.

[freemoney]

haha after ray zee comments on the value of the post you guys of course do the same thing, the amount of unoriginality is disturbing, i wish we could post hands, and people give advice without reading a better player's advice and plagarizing.