standard raise or shove? (stars $530

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]


Antes have to be $500, not 5000, which makes a huge difference. There is $19k in the pot before cards are dealt - blinds have 20x BB - Shoving is a horrible mistake. You are only called by dominating hands.

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If you're saying that only dominating hands call me you're also saying AQo and TT fold. If that's the case (which i don't think it is) then i think that shoving is clearly the best play

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blinds have 20x BB - Shoving is a horrible mistake. You are only called by dominating hands.

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Let's assume this is true (although i don't think shoving can be a "HORRIBLE" mistake):

How many BB's is too many? At what point are the do the blinds have enough chips to justify making a smaller raise and folding to a shove.

[MrGo]

If your opponents will fold A9, this makes raising PF all the more sensible. Then fire again on the flop.

Shoving here is kinda like that theory with pocket aces - win a little/lose a lot. Same thing applies here. You will more than likely win the blinds, yes, but you are also demonstrating that you don't want to see a flop. And when you are called, you will be behind.

[whynot?]

so i think in contrast to some of what you said, shoving exudes weakness - would you shove with aces, ak, kk, any reasonable pocket pair? not likely unless you're trying to be tricky - add to that these guys have an m of about tenish - so they're looking for a chance to double up so they can make the real money

that says to me:
1. shoving will be more likely to be called then you think
2. the villains are more likely to shove back at you if they sense weakness

if you believe the above, i think a realistic way to play this given your desire to get it all in it seems is to limp, and reraise all in if one of em comes back at you w a std reraise - that disguises your hand on the initial bet and implies huge strength with the three bet - if reraised all in by one of em i'd have to let the hand go, but thats ok as you set them up for the next time or so around

[adanthar]

ok think of it this way:

you have effective stacks of 22 BB. no doubt, consulting the appropriate chart will tell you that shoving will win you some fraction of an SB (definitely not more than that.)

1)do you think raise/folding is worse? for it to be worse, they would have to reraise or shove (and you would always have to fold) > 35% of the time if you open to 3x.

2)do you never raise/call? (hint: this is not all that bad here!)

3)is limp/calling worse?

I guarantee 1, 3 and possibly even 2 are all more +EV

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponents will fold A9, this makes raising PF all the more sensible. Then fire again on the flop.

Shoving here is kinda like that theory with pocket aces - win a little/lose a lot. Same thing applies here. You will more than likely win the blinds, yes, but you are also demonstrating that you don't want to see a flop. And when you are called, you will be behind.

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I understand what you are saying, but i think you are ignoring a couple of important factors. When i raise 2.5bb's on the button this looks like a clear blind steal. Villians will play back at me light and often time will make me fold the best hand. They'll also often times shove with hands like 44 or A9 when they would have folded if i would have shoved.

[TwistedEcho]

Aggie, pushing is +EV for sure, but i don't think its the most +EV. VS two uncreative TAGS (you should have noticed by now if they appear to be the types who care about moving up in money) then i prefer 3bb raise and fold if they push.

IF they are creative better players, then i would still be raising to 3bb and calling their pushes sometimes.

I'm pretty sure i never open limp here with any hand, i have no idea if thats a leak but i don't really like to open limp here.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
ok think of it this way:

you have effective stacks of 22 BB. no doubt, consulting the appropriate chart will tell you that shoving will win you some fraction of an SB (definitely not more than that.)

1)do you think raise/folding is worse? for it to be worse, they would have to reraise or shove (and you would always have to fold) > 35% of the time if you open to 3x.

2)do you never raise/call? (hint: this is not all that bad here!)

3)is limp/calling worse?

I guarantee 1, 3 and possibly even 2 are all more +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly....I think getting KJs on the button is a +EV spot for me basically no matter what i do with it. That is why i'm arguing with those who think shoving is a "HORRIBLE" mistake. I do agree that it probably isn't the most +EV play which is why i posted it.

In the actual hand i shoved and got called by AKs. It was the one big hand in the tournament that jumps out at me that i misplayed.

I really hadn't thought about limping here though which in hindsight seems like the best play. Limp-reraising and limp-calling both seem good.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies. As i said i'm not used to playing short and posts like adanhars and a few others are very helpful [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
Aggie, pushing is +EV for sure, but i don't think its the most +EV. VS two uncreative TAGS (you should have noticed by now if they appear to be the types who care about moving up in money) then i prefer 3bb raise and fold if they push.

IF they are creative better players, then i would still be raising to 3bb and calling their pushes sometimes.

I'm pretty sure i never open limp here with any hand, i have no idea if thats a leak but i don't really like to open limp here.

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i had probably been moved to this table <50 hands ago so i didn't have any great reads...Only the impression that they were TAGS. I was very much unsure if these guys are trying to win or move up...

I also never really consider limping in this spot but upon thinking about it it seems like a very valid option. I agree with everything else you said

[TwistedEcho]

Altho i don't do it that often, pokerdb'ing players never hurts if you have the time. Just seeing that they play $3 mtts or $109r should give some indication as to what they think about $200-300 money jumps.

FWIW, i had a similar spot w/ 44 in the warm up (sb and bb had 20bb and i covered by a lot) and they clearly cared about the money so i shoved.

[uclabruinz]

This is a rare circumstance where I will frequently open limp. Otherwise, I will raise/fold. It's really not the same as 72o because their stacks are sufficient that they will frequently just call.

Those who don't use the open limp option here occasionally are missing out.