Limon et al. Let's talk properly about minraises!!!!

[JunkTrunk]

POSTFLOP

MINRAISE THE SHORTISH STACK

You raise QQ preflop and the BB calls. He has 30 BBs after his call.

Flop is Q74r. He donks 4BBs into an 8BB pot. Your hand is huge but a large raise doesn't make sense. You will have no problem getting it AI on the last 2 streets if he has a Q so you need to maximize against hands like A7/87/A4/TT/99/88, etc.... A large raise there will fold out these hands. So, we minraise because nobody likes folding to a minraise if they hold a piece. We can then bet conservatively on the turn while still building enough of a pot to put him AI on the river.

[delta k]

The only time I really like a min-raise is on the river when value is thin and we're folding to a shove.

However given some of our thoughts about min-raises (they get shoved over, they encourage calls OR the opposite versus some villains and induce bad folds) we can certainly include them as a manipulative tool.

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
One BIG problem I find with minraises is that basically, you are either doing it for value or as a bluff, and if you're doing it for value, your opponent has really good odds and if you're doing it as a bluff, then you're making it VERY tempting for oppoennts to continue. Here is a thread where I actually LIKE a minraise (for reasons I explained in the thread). However, you'll see a lot of very good posters/players say that they will call a minraise and expect a lot of opponents to call a minraise with JJ/TT etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

My reply is kind of an amorphous blob, but oh well.

I like minraises as a kind of slowplay. I'll only slowplay/value minraise when I'm not vulnerable. For example, with a flopped full house I may minraise on the turn. I'm doing it because I know he will call very very often even with a hand that is just Ace-high. This, by the way, is also why I don't like tufat's minraise in the linked thread. Tufat is basically just snapping off a CB, but he's going to get a lot of calls from even unimproved hands, so it's a bluff with not enough FE. Whether or not it worked this time is irrelevant.

[Matt Flynn]

Great thread ideas Dan. I'll be following at a distance. Gotta get this book done first.

[mattak]

[ QUOTE ]


SB:

If I have a tightish player in the BB and it's folded to me I will test him out by minraising. Often he has the 'check-fold' button preclicked and I know that I will be able to steal with any 2 cards just by minraising.

If there are 2 or more loose limpers who are unlikely to fold to a standard raise I will minraise a boatload of hands in the SB. These include 22-88, SCs, suited broadways, and suited Aces. I'm looking to flop large and the 'double pot' from my preflop raise makes it much easier to get AI postflop. Also, it allows us to raise preflop and check-fold flops for cheap, which provides a nice balance for loose aggressive play.

BB:

22-88, SCs, suited broadways, and suited Aces after multiple loose limpers.


This is just preflop. I'll try to include some postflop examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see players do this all the time and I just assume they are weak. You are bloating a pot OOP with a drawing hand. There has been many threads recently on the implied odds of set hunting. Basically, the theme is that you need higher implied odds than most people assume. IMO, You are reducing your implied odds by min raising here. I am really trying to see your point but for me I want to play small pots OOP and see cheap flops with drawing hands.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, every1, please take your flaming elsewhere. This thread is for a proper discussion of minraise strategy.

Personally, I think there are VERY few spots where a minraise is effective. The times I DO like it, are for value with a monster vs a moran, as a cheap bluff in a rr pot, minraise/folding rivers for thin value, and to get value preflop when you're not giving villain set value. As I'm sure most of you have realised, limon has incorperated minraising into his game to form a sort of strategy (for lack of a better word).

Pros of minraises:

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Gets value of marginal holdings
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Screws with TAGs heads
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Is a very cheap bluff
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Can buy you a very cheap card in position
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Buys information at a low price
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Can be used as a value bluff (as shown in this thread)



Cons of minraising:

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] If you have a good hand, it sets a cheap price for your opponent to outdraw you
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Re-opens the betting to get pushed off your draw
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Sets a cheap price for your opponent to call you when you are bluffing
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Seems fishy, so players might 3bet you light so the information you gain uisn't too valuable
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Bloats the pot when you do it with an average holding (as so many fish do)

If any1 can add more pros and cons, PLEASE DO. As I only spent a few mins coming up with these.

One BIG problem I find with minraises is that basically, you are either doing it for value or as a bluff, and if you're doing it for value, your opponent has really good odds and if you're doing it as a bluff, then you're making it VERY tempting for oppoennts to continue. Here is a thread where I actually LIKE a minraise (for reasons I explained in the thread). However, you'll see a lot of very good posters/players say that they will call a minraise and expect a lot of opponents to call a minraise with JJ/TT etc.

I think that opponents calling your minraise bluffs with a lot of hands on the flop is a double edged sword. On the plus, it means you can 2 barrel and have got "value" from your bluff, onthe other hand, you might not always want to 2 barrel, you are unsure of his range for calling flop and it commits you to making a pretty damn big pot with air.

So here ESPECIALLY is where I would like some of your imput limon. As part of your minraising strategy, do you find yourself 2/3 barelling a lot? Or do you minraise at 1st primarilly for value, and then start to use it for bluffs more as your opponents adjust? How do you counteract the fact it gives your opponents lovely odds?

Limon, I know it might seem I'm "calling you out" a bit in this thread, but I can assure you I'm not. You seem to be the person around here that knows the most about minraises, how to use them and how to handle them and so I'm simply trying to learn for my benefit and for every1's around here from some1 on a subject where you seem to know a lot more than us.

With that in mind, I'm going to take 2 threads where you suggested to minraise, where I think it looked pretty bad spots for doing so, but you never really fully explained yourself, and i was wondering if (when you get the time and as well as contributing to this thread if possible), you could expand on your reasons for liking the minraise in that spot.

Here you say that you like minraise 4betting/folding. Now are the game conditions that you play in really such that you don't have enough equity vs his range to call a shove? And why do you want to give odds to any PP to call for set value?

Here you say that you like a min c/r, bet small on turn/river then fold to a shove on any street. Well, if your min c/r is caled on the flop, the pot will be $71.5 with just $63 behind. Where exactly do you think you're getting away once you've led the turn? So my problem there is that if villain has AJ+, you're making it VERY easy for him to stack you (he has to be pretty stupid to 3bet the flop). this is a clear spot of wheere I HATE a minraise, as it build a big pot with a bad hand.


Anyway, I know this thread is rather jumbled, but if every1 could please post there thoughts here and keep flaming away, it would be most appriciated.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

wow what a good post. shame we couldnt have done this a week ago w/o all the noise.

some points:

1. im not really taling about minraising im talking about accurate bet sizing. this ranges from min to all in. no bet should ever be "out of bounds"

2. when i skim through the hands sometimes i get the stack sizes wrong. my default assumption is that people have over 100bb. sometimes i could give really bad advice based on the stack sizes if you thinks so just give a thought out response. my re-response might be what if the stacks were 10x bigger. this is how a discussion gets started. the original post is just a starting point.

3. in the KK scenario the guy has doesnt have odds to make his set on the flop does he? hes not going to see the turn and river for free.

4. in the at scenario 5 handed against a button raise your hand is like ak. if you dont think people will call 12 more on the flop 24 on the turn and 24 on the river w/ a hand dominated by yours i think you need to try it a few times sometimes you will even see a hand like jq.

[BearHustler]

Up until now, I liked a minraise only if

- I was holding a good hand and looking to get paid off on it
- I was not worried about being outdrawn
- stack and pot size are such that villain will feel committed after calling the minraise
- I feel it is much more likely that villain calls a small raise than a big raise

Or as a bluff against a TAG, but I have to be 95% sure he's a multitabling, auto-pilot nit that doesn't realise I never do it with a monster except in the above scenario.

I don't do any of them even once every three sessions though.

[EMc]

I dont have a whole lot of time, but thanks Dan. I feel that SSNL as a whole really, really underestimates the power of min raises, and they should be a viable part of our aresenal.

Just a quick example of one of the biggest benefits:

100bb stacks in effect.
Villain is UTG, Hero Btn.

UTG raises to 4, Hero calls with xx.

Flop is y u z, missing Hero.

Villain leads for pot, I think there is a ton of value min raising here. Why?

- You have regained control of the hand
- You will see more cards for a less overall price
- Villain will normally only re-raise if he beats you
- Villain may just fold

It pretty much allows you to play your hand perfectly on the 2 big streets

[BearHustler]

Ok, can we lock this thread now and go back to hating on minraises please? I'm really not looking forward to being minraised constantly for the next two months.