What's wrong with my belief in God and/or religion?

[diebitter]

Your protestations, and protestations of people taking a similar stance along the lines of 'why shouldn't I believe X?' always have a strong whiff of lacking real intestinal fortitude about their beliefs, when it involves non-rational beliefs (I mean no disparagement by using the term 'non-rational'). Often it comes across as bolstering your own beliefs, which then leads to the question 'why do you think they need bolstering?'

In short, chest-thumping and challenging people to dissuade you of your beliefs makes you appear unconfident about them yourself.

I wonder if anyone actually needs to dissuade you of them.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Rationalize what you want - the straight, direct fact is that God sends plagues and fires and armies to ravage entire nations when someone pisses him off. You'll never, ever convince me that's what a loving being does.

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Attributing violent actions to an unprovable entity in a very violent era is hardly sufficient weight of a proof for a non-benevolent God, especially if you're using a centuries-old document as a valid example to construct such a proof.

You'd be working from a background with skewed data.

Assuming Jesus of Nazareth was a normal fella, maybe a little nuts, heard voices and had a talent for drawing crowds and being magnetic. Might've had a foot fetish, but let's not dwell on that one.

What did the powers of the era do once he became a problem? Yup. Nailed him to a damn tree and he hung for 3 days.

Really, he's not much more than an example of a man who held himself up to the golden rule and got betrayed and sentenced to death in a brutal fashion.

That's all beside the point in this thread though. And this might be the problem with religion as it is now. It's become more or less entwined with faith that most people, even intelligent ones, cannot make the distinction between the two.

Faith in your fellow man, love, and all the virtues that should be moral in a perfect world... That's the lessons you draw upon that should be held up. Even by historical example.

One could easily angle the plague of locusts as a bounty from an idiot savant God who thought it would make a good protein source in a desert. It's all in the way you look at it.

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After internalizing that belief, I found when I read "stories" in the Bible, that's all they were - stories. But they were stories with a meaning. And more often than not, those stories when read from my new perspective and read as stories and not literal facts would elicit an emotion in me and quite often that emotion was love.

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Love or awe? And objectively, a well told story fleshed out in film can engender similar effects. A medium's a medium.

Organized religion has grown increasingly more intolerant in view of the modern era and what the majority chooses to do. Some of its percepts are outdated and laughable. We're not 4th century savages, are we.

Faith in God or Allah or the ever-present FSM's and its variations are all well and good. All that is created is a sense of continuity and a motivation to do the right things.

Ancient scholars certainly cannot be held up to moral infallibility. Neither can a Church which has historically violated one of its most fundamental commandments in the name of carrying its faith forcibly to any border, any group of people that fight this.

In a broad context, Christianity fails its own moral standards, miserably, and continues to do so to this day.

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What are supposed to be the actual teachings of Christ, after whom Christianity is named, undeniably stress love for God and love for one's neighbors as the two most important principles.

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Well, yeah. But what makes this religion so damn special that it still carries this ridiculous power? Disney tales do the same thing. The good guy always wins. Gets the girl. People live happily ever after only if they do the right thing. Life spans are too short for such a sustainable fairytale land to be a reality.

If there is, indeed, a benevolent God, Christianity is doing a pisspoor job of making its case.

But if you find something in one of its sacred works that makes you believe in such a thing, that shouldn't be derided or discounted. 'cause that's faith, not religion. Feeling love or compassion isn't a ritual or something you learn. Either you have it or you don't.

[cambraceres]

John, the god you believe in is not close to the orthodox conception.

What is your conception of God?

I wish to know what you believe his intrinsic characteristics are, only then can a shred of rational analysis be attempted in a valid context. I would like to help sift through the metaphysical, philosophical setting and various implications of your belief, but it is not properly defined to allow me to speak of it in a meaningful fashion.

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God isn't a person or being that exists outside of us. To me it's all an internal, subjective process.

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I imagine your words to be a mischaracterization, what do you mean when you reference god as a process?

Why not hold the only thing you know to exist, your own intellect, as your "God"?

Cam

[John21]

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What is your conception of God?

I wish to know what you believe his intrinsic characteristics are, only then can a shred of rational analysis be attempted in a valid context. I would like to help sift through the metaphysical, philosophical setting and various implications of your belief, but it is not properly defined to allow me to speak of it in a meaningful fashion.


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As far as what my conception of god is, I think I was pretty clear on that: God is love. But like I alluded to that's an accepted belief or axiom. From there I can't say I've made a great deal of progress, but I feel pretty comfortable with my next conclusion: love implies harmony. And while I might explore the boundaries, that's where the feeling of ground under my feet ends. God is love > love implies harmony. After that I'm speculating.

[MidGe]

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As far as what my conception of god is, I think I was pretty clear on that: God is love. But like I alluded to that's an accepted belief or axiom. From there I can't say I've made a great deal of progress, but I feel pretty comfortable with my next conclusion: love implies harmony.

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I know I am pushing John21, but I sort of think you are blinkered or willfully ignoring the world as it is. How are you reconciling "love", this absolute god of love, with the unwarranted suffering of innocents (don't count me into those if it helps! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )?

I accept that love may be your aim, and very worthy at that, but it is not the prime cause or something warranting anything but contempt, or compassion [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] , for its lack of understanding.

[ChrisV]

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I decided "I could believe" that sentence, and I just made the decision "to believe it" - and now I feel I know it's true. God is love…

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I dunno. It seems bizarre to me that anyone of even a remotely skeptical mind would find this convincing. Frankly, I'd recommend a large dose of LSD, as a lesson in how easily beliefs can be ripped apart and new ones formed.

[John21]

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the straight, direct fact is that God sends plagues and fires and armies to ravage entire nations when someone pisses him off. You'll never, ever convince me that's what a loving being does.


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I'll haphazard a guess and say you're in the vengeful father or protective mother epoch of the Bible. So will Momma Bear send "plagues and fires and armies to ravage entire nations when someone pisses her off" or threatens her cubs?

Like I implied earlier, it's a story. And like all good stories: there's a moral to the story. So what's that story tell you to do if someone faucks with your cubs? (hint: it starts with a "k" and ends with an "l".) Mamma Bear kills when someone threatens her cubs, and that's what the Bible tells you to do when someone threatens your children. You don't ask questions; you don't rationalize or pragmatize; you kill. Period.

[MidGe]

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I'll haphazard a guess and say you're in the vengeful father or protective mother epoch of the Bible. So will Momma Bear send "plagues and fires and armies to ravage entire nations when someone pisses her off" or threatens her cubs?


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I see, your god of love is animal like?

[John21]

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I'll haphazard a guess and say you're in the vengeful father or protective mother epoch of the Bible. So will Momma Bear send "plagues and fires and armies to ravage entire nations when someone pisses her off" or threatens her cubs?


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I see, your god of love is animal like?

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Love like a mother and kill like a father...sure.

[MidGe]

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Love like a mother and kill like a father...sure.

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Say no more... you have a very primitive view of motherhood and fatherhood. But, hey, that's alright, it takes a while for civilization to take hold!