Observed hand at CAZ 20/40, ATs in bb.

[Hass]

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As played I ask him why he didn't raise the flop to get heads up with Sb. The flop play was what I was most interested in hearing about.

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I'd raise the flop here, hoping to fold the other 2 players, and get to showdown cheap UI. I think that's pretty standard, nothing fancy. As I said, I think he just didn't want to risk any chips at all.

As long as I'm gossiping let me ask:

When you questioned him did he make a face, tilt his head, wave his hand dismissively and mumble something half meaningful and grimace? Cracks me up when he does that. Sometimes I get to talking to him about a hand and I get that treatment 90% of the time. Away from the table me and him are ok, but at the table.......

I get along fine w/ the blonde guy all the time. If I thought I could help him w/ his attitude I would but he's going to have to learn that himself.

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I would say its just cause he is young, 25 or so, but that might sound funny since I am still younger than both of them. I'm pretty calm for my age I guess, and just try to laugh at others dumb luck and my running bad.

[jfk]

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He played this hand really badly. Raising pf is mandatory. Folding on the flop is by far the worst of the 3 options.

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I don't know that there's enough info to call the preflop raise "mandatory".

It is solid winning play to do it if typical hands have 5 limpers (SSHE 101), but game conditions aren't described. There are some game conditions in which not to raise here despite the big field.

As played, I'd raise the flop to shut out those behind. With the backdoor draws he's looking at 6-7 outs. May as well shut out those behind him.

[vmacosta]

" There are some game conditions in which not to raise here despite the big field."

JFK,
I hear this a lot (a bunch of 15/9/3 types, I'm guessing you mean), but I honestly don't think I've ever played in a real live game that fit the description.

[Victor]

i like the flop fold. 2nd pair is worthless here. and not closing action i dont want to put more than 1bet in.

[benwood]

I think yhat a p/f rais with this hand is ok but not mandatory because of the poor position.Flush draws play a lot better from the back end.I would be a lot more likely to raise this hand from the CO or button in a large field like this.

On the flop,SB is very likely to hold a K since he is leading into 5 players.Getting 7 to 1 current odds with the possibility of a raise behind,I think that a fold is reasonable.

He did play the hand on the careful side,but his play was fine,imo.

[toss]

Why do so many people like calling the flop? SB bet out with four to act and all we have is second pair on a not so great board. The last time I played limit this was an easy fold.

[Victor]

"He did play the hand on the careful side,but his play was fine,imo. "

i dont htink he played it fine. he is clearly losing value not raising pf. also, for image purposes raising is far better.

[moneyshot]

given the way the hand was played. Calling by far the worst option. You have no idea where you are, you are encouraging a big field on the turn. where you have likely 4 outs and a backdoor flush draw.

If the SB is only going to be leading with top hands, then a fold is not bad.

[jfk]

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" There are some game conditions in which not to raise here despite the big field."

JFK,
I hear this a lot (a bunch of 15/9/3 types, I'm guessing you mean), but I honestly don't think I've ever played in a real live game that fit the description.

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JFK,
I hear this a lot (a bunch of 15/9/3 types, I'm guessing you mean), but I honestly don't think I've ever played in a real live game that fit the description.

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You're right, but there are live games where five and six handed pots are unusual and where certain players are going to have a much higher limping standard than a typical mid-limit game.

In those cases I don't think my ATs has the equity edge that can be assumed in a typical game. (If anyone knows how to price the value of the a and T in this big a pot, I'd like to hear it. I know that you'll flop an A or T or both about a third of the time, but don't know how to discount that in terms of equity assuming that neither may be best if flopped.)

Also, as benwood points out, not having position here devalues the worth of a flush draw if you flop well.

Raising is the standard (good) preflop play, but it also makes some sense to make adjustments based on the field and position but wouldn't go so far as to say that it is "mandatory".

I do think not raising the SB's flop lead is an error. Though the pot is now just 7 SBs, we're probably not much worse than 3 to 1 here, even if the SB has a K. Both the A and T figure to be clean and the back door draws are both to the nuts. You're priced into a flop raise here.

[vmacosta]

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2nd pair is worthless here. and not closing action i dont want to put more than 1bet in.

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Well I thought about this some more and while I don't quite agree with this, I changed my mind and would like to retract this advice:

"Folding on the flop is by far the worst of the 3 options."

I think its actually pretty close between all 3 and would benefit from hearing others' opinions on it.