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#11
01-19-2007, 03:28 AM
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Re: 2-4 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How many hands is these stats over? If he really is that nitty then what is he going go raise the flop with other than QQ+. I don't see any point in putting a 3-bet in on the flop. Call down. [/ QUOTE ] ?? I'm ahead of QQ and JJ ... behind AA ... tie with KK ... why not 3bet? [/ QUOTE ] I really don't think this guy is doing this with JJ. He 3-bet PF, got capped, and he is still raising you on this flop. I ask about the stats because if this guy really is passive then he would only do this with QQ+ IMO. That means you are pretty much 50/50 with his range. All 3-betting does then is allow you to get capped when behind. So, I think its just a call, c/c, b/f line from here on. 
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#12
01-19-2007, 03:39 AM
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Re: 2-4 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How many hands is these stats over? If he really is that nitty then what is he going go raise the flop with other than QQ+. I don't see any point in putting a 3-bet in on the flop. Call down. [/ QUOTE ] ?? I'm ahead of QQ and JJ ... behind AA ... tie with KK ... why not 3bet? [/ QUOTE ] I really don't think this guy is doing this with JJ. He 3-bet PF, got capped, and he is still raising you on this flop. I ask about the stats because if this guy really is passive then he would only do this with QQ+ IMO. That means you are pretty much 50/50 with his range. All 3-betting does then is allow you to get capped when behind. So, I think its just a call, c/c, b/f line from here on. [/ QUOTE ] hands are enough ... can't remember exact OK - I gave my self JJ (I thought it was marginal) so you think it's a flop bet/call (call down) ... what do you think on the turn then (if he only does this with QQ+ we are hoping for a split ... ease fold then?)
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#13
01-19-2007, 03:53 AM
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Re: 2-4 KK
[ QUOTE ]
How many hands is these stats over? If he really is that nitty then what is he going go raise the flop with other than QQ+. I don't see any point in putting a 3-bet in on the flop. Call down. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. Call down after flop raise. C/C river. I know it seems weak, but its the cheapest way to showdown, the pot is large, we're HU, and we've got KK. I think its weaker to fold and not showdown KK. Its a high variance hand, so we usually either win big, or lose big, and we're pretty much committed at this point. If we lose to AA, QQ, beat JJ, TT, and chop with KK, we're just about 50%....
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#14
01-19-2007, 12:19 PM
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Re: 2-4 KK
Once you have 3-bet then there is ~7BB on the turn. You need to get to showdown with this hand. If you bet and get raised it is 11:2 effective odds to call down. It is certainly worth showing down, I don't think you can fold this anywhere, especially since you are HU.
It would take super faith in your read to fold this turn.
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#15
01-19-2007, 12:40 PM
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Re: 2-4 KK
Nitty villain's flop raise after hero's PF cap certainly seems to point to QQ-AA, his lack of flop cap seems to take out AA. QQ is more likely than KK since hero has 2 K's. Turn bet likely gets folded by TT-JJ (slim chance)called by KK, raised by QQ and you can safely fold. Or check call turn and river paying extra bet if you want to see his hand for information. Maybe also table image consideration - if people see you folding turn to a raise after capping PF and 3 betting flop they may be more inclined to take shots. Check-call turn and river is what I'd end up doing in the heat of battle.
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#16
01-19-2007, 01:19 PM
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Re: 2-4 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] more or less I'm: bet folding ... or check calling [/ QUOTE ] More or less? What are your other options? Check/fold? So, more or less you're taking one of two of the three possible options? Hmm, that leaves bet/raise and bet/call out in the cold a bit, doesn't it? Seriously, this isn't a very interesting hand. If you want to generate some traffic, give us something to talk about...maybe some hand ranges? Otherwise, you're WA/WB...you're losing to AA/QQ, you're beating JJ/TT, and you're pushing with the other KK. Check/call the turn, bet/fold the river. [/ QUOTE ] Why bet/fold the river? I can see that you might want to make sure you get a bet in on the river in case you are ahead, but I'm thinking he's going to bet the river the majority of the time anyway and I'd like to see what he has instead of folding to the raise. By check/calling, you also eliminate the small risk that he'd raise with a worse hand or bluff. If you are going to fold the river to a raise, why not just bet/fold the turn and get it over with.
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#17
01-19-2007, 01:29 PM
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Re: 2-4 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] more or less I'm: bet folding ... or check calling [/ QUOTE ] More or less? What are your other options? Check/fold? So, more or less you're taking one of two of the three possible options? Hmm, that leaves bet/raise and bet/call out in the cold a bit, doesn't it? Seriously, this isn't a very interesting hand. If you want to generate some traffic, give us something to talk about...maybe some hand ranges? Otherwise, you're WA/WB...you're losing to AA/QQ, you're beating JJ/TT, and you're pushing with the other KK. Check/call the turn, bet/fold the river. [/ QUOTE ] Why bet/fold the river? I can see that you might want to make sure you get a bet in on the river in case you are ahead, but I'm thinking he's going to bet the river the majority of the time anyway and I'd like to see what he has instead of folding to the raise. By check/calling, you also eliminate the small risk that he'd raise with a worse hand or bluff. If you are going to fold the river to a raise, why not just bet/fold the turn and get it over with. [/ QUOTE ] lol. Dude, that was so.....eloquent (honestly)! Of course, you know we're probably wrong about c/c that river [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Q: Why would we want to "see" what villain has when we can pretty much figure it out? Also, Wouldn't that be a horrible bluff?
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#18
01-19-2007, 01:51 PM
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Re: 2-4 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] more or less I'm: bet folding ... or check calling [/ QUOTE ] More or less? What are your other options? Check/fold? So, more or less you're taking one of two of the three possible options? Hmm, that leaves bet/raise and bet/call out in the cold a bit, doesn't it? Seriously, this isn't a very interesting hand. If you want to generate some traffic, give us something to talk about...maybe some hand ranges? Otherwise, you're WA/WB...you're losing to AA/QQ, you're beating JJ/TT, and you're pushing with the other KK. Check/call the turn, bet/fold the river. [/ QUOTE ] Why bet/fold the river? I can see that you might want to make sure you get a bet in on the river in case you are ahead, but I'm thinking he's going to bet the river the majority of the time anyway and I'd like to see what he has instead of folding to the raise. By check/calling, you also eliminate the small risk that he'd raise with a worse hand or bluff. If you are going to fold the river to a raise, why not just bet/fold the turn and get it over with. [/ QUOTE ] lol. Dude, that was so.....eloquent (honestly)! Of course, you know we're probably wrong about c/c that river [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Q: Why would we want to "see" what villain has when we can pretty much figure it out? Also, Wouldn't that be a horrible bluff? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I realize we would likely be behind if we check/called the river. However, if it's going to cost me 1 bet on the river either way, I'd like to see his hand and potentially learn something. A bluff would be a very low probability event, buy why open myself up to it?
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#19
01-19-2007, 02:01 PM
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Re: 2-4 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] more or less I'm: bet folding ... or check calling [/ QUOTE ] More or less? What are your other options? Check/fold? So, more or less you're taking one of two of the three possible options? Hmm, that leaves bet/raise and bet/call out in the cold a bit, doesn't it? Seriously, this isn't a very interesting hand. If you want to generate some traffic, give us something to talk about...maybe some hand ranges? Otherwise, you're WA/WB...you're losing to AA/QQ, you're beating JJ/TT, and you're pushing with the other KK. Check/call the turn, bet/fold the river. [/ QUOTE ] Why bet/fold the river? I can see that you might want to make sure you get a bet in on the river in case you are ahead, but I'm thinking he's going to bet the river the majority of the time anyway and I'd like to see what he has instead of folding to the raise. By check/calling, you also eliminate the small risk that he'd raise with a worse hand or bluff. If you are going to fold the river to a raise, why not just bet/fold the turn and get it over with. [/ QUOTE ] lol. Dude, that was so.....eloquent (honestly)! Of course, you know we're probably wrong about c/c that river [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Q: Why would we want to "see" what villain has when we can pretty much figure it out? Also, Wouldn't that be a horrible bluff? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I realize we would likely be behind if we check/called the river. However, if it's going to cost me 1 bet on the river either way, I'd like to see his hand and potentially learn something. A bluff would be a very low probability event, buy why open myself up to it? [/ QUOTE ] You get more value out of betting the river here. Some hands may check behind on the river that will call a bet. What are you going to learn here you think?
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#20
01-19-2007, 02:03 PM
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Re: 2-4 KK
[ QUOTE ]
Why bet/fold the river? [/ QUOTE ] For all the usual reasons, the biggest two being that the way the hand was played a) he'll call a bet with way more hands than he'll bet with when checked to, and b) he won't raise the river with a hand that can't beat TP. Given the flop action, Villan's entire range is still in play. [ QUOTE ] If you are going to fold the river to a raise, why not just bet/fold the turn and get it over with. [/ QUOTE ] You still have outs on the turn, he could still be semi-bluffing on the turn, and he'll raise AQ/KQ on the turn. If you bet the turn, you can't fold to a raise. If you bet the turn, he might correctly fold a hand (getting 7:1, and a lot of his range has 3 outs or less against you) that he'll check the turn through and call a river bet with. If you check the turn, he might take a stab with atc. Lots of reasons. (btw, these questions should have been asked in the opposite order.)
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