$4/180, Early Game, JJ in the BB with Limpers

[Fiksdal]

BY THE WAY!

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Does anybody just check preflop and play this for set value?


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Dude...

raising normal sized (t250-t300) >>> shoving >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t; checking for set-value.

[zoobird]

Checking for set value is basically turning your JJ into 22.

[Jbrochu]

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Checking for set value is basically turning your JJ into 22.

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Well I would still have some overpair value on a low flop so my comment "play for set value" was a little misleading. However, flopping an overpair might not be good with 4 to 5 other players seeing the flop so the overpair is not as valuable as it would be in a raised pot with a narrowed field.

So everybody is advocating raising to something around 240 to 250. Is anybody that limp/called 200 preflop really going to fold for 250? If not, please explain why you think the bigger bet is better.

[Fiksdal]

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Checking for set value is basically turning your JJ into 22.

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Well I would still have some overpair value on a low flop so my comment "play for set value" was a little misleading. However, flopping an overpair might not be good with 4 to 5 other players seeing the flop so the overpair is not as valuable as it would be in a raised pot with a narrowed field.

So everybody is advocating raising to something around 240 to 250. Is anybody that limp/called 200 preflop really going to fold for 250? If not, please explain why you think the bigger bet is better.

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Very simple. While you don't want this to be a 6-handed pot, you still want it to be as big as possible, given that you have the best hand. So obviously: the more you raise, the more you and your strong hand gains.

[zoobird]

You're right the larger pre-flop bet won't make them fold. That's the beauty of it. They're going to be calling you with worse hands. The more money you get them to put in while they're behind the better. I've actually been thinking lately that in these low buy in tournaments, I may change my standard opening raise for the first 5 minutes (while the total idiots are still in it) to something like 10bb and see what happens. I think I remember posting a question specifically about whether I want people to call my JJ raises with worse hands or not, where MLG gave a really good explanation...the post is about a year old though, so good luck finding it.

[Jbrochu]

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Very simple. While you don't want this to be a 6-handed pot, you still want it to

be as big as possible, given that you have the best hand. So obviously: the more you raise,

the more you and your strong hand gains.


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I'm not sure about that.

I think we've reached consensus on the following:

- A bigger raise to somewhere around 250 will likely narrow the field somewhat but we will probably still be playing a multi-way pot.

- In general, we should check/fold from OOP in a multiway pot if an overcard flops and we don't also make a set.


Won't an overcard flop 57% of the time? Of course, sometimes when an overcard flops we will also flop a set. However, sometimes when we flop an overpair someone else flops a set so lets roughly cancel those probabilities.

This leaves us building a big pot OOP and check/folding something around 50% of the time.

If all of this is true then maybe the better way to play it is one of the following:

- Raise large enough that you probably take it down preflop. (Maybe 300 to 400?)

- Raise small enough that you narrow the field somewhat but lose less chips when you're forced to check/fold (170 to 200?)

- Check and play for set value, and to a lesser extent, overpair value


Thoughts?

[cha59]

I think talking about why raising 250 is better than 200 is like splitting hairs. Any raise 200+ is fine. I think pushing is ok but probably not the best play. I highly doubt the extra 50 makes any difference to someone who is calling.

I also disagree with those who say checking and taking a flop is bad. I think this play is fine with JJ in this situation. We don't have KK or AA and I think the potential payoff and low risk make this a fine alternative preflop.

The only play I really dont like preflop is raising much less than 200.

I think the check/fold on this flop is fine.

[JCCARL]

Yu played it fine. A bit weak but then again weak aces see the flop here. When you get limpers who subsequently call with their weak ace, good players try very hard to flop a set, especially if an ace hits also [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].


Regards,
Carl

[DeuceSeven]

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You're right the larger pre-flop bet won't make them fold. That's the beauty of it. They're going to be calling you with worse hands. The more money you get them to put in while they're behind the better. I've actually been thinking lately that in these low buy in tournaments, I may change my standard opening raise for the first 5 minutes (while the total idiots are still in it) to something like 10bb and see what happens. I think I remember posting a question specifically about whether I want people to call my JJ raises with worse hands or not, where MLG gave a really good explanation...the post is about a year old though, so good luck finding it.

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This is what I've found too. I open raise in the first 2 levels to 5bb + bb per limper and in a hand like OP posted I might bust out with a raise to something like 500.

[UtzChips]

I not only find maniacs in these tournaments, I also find a fair share of people limping with AT+. I prefer to get my money in the pot when I feel the odds are in favor of me still having the lead after the Flop. That's not the case in your hand. Or, at best it's a coin flip or a little better in your favor.

Raising preflop to get more money in the Pot with the best hand is a valid argument, however, you may have had the best hand after the Flop and had to let it go. If you cannot protect your hand after the Flop, due to being OOP, why invest so much on it before seeing the next 3 cards?

Is JJ worth 15% of your stack when you will have to lay it down 50% of the time after the Flop if an overcard hits and someone bets after you check? If your philosophy is to either score big early or move on to the next tourney, maybe so. My philosphy, however, is to patiently wait for the right situation where I not only believe I have the best hand going into the Flop, but can control the situation after the Flop.

Remember, that 200 raise you don't make can be doubled later and turned into 400 under better situations.

Cons for raising:
1. You're up against maniacs who will bet with nothing on the Flop forcing you to fold.
2. You have an approx. 50/50 chance of having an overpair to the board.
3. The board will be 2 suited making a flush draw possible about 40% of the time if memory serves me.
4. The board will give a possible str8 draw 40% of the time.
5. You are out of position and only have 33x BB to work with, will be betting 15% of it preflop, with no way of controlling matters postflop.

Pros for checking:
1. When you do hit a favorable Flop, you don't have to make up the 200 raises you made preflop in previous instances & had to fold, before you can show a profit on the Flops that do fit your hand.
2. You still have a healthy stack after the Flop.