AT, 2 overcards, standard? - Page 2

HoneyBadger · #11 01-12-2007, 09:51 AM

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Why must he call? As he said his plan was to clean up outs/ buy a free card etc. Once he gets 3bet theres not much chance of a free card on the turn, so what are you calling for? To hit and win the hand obviously. Hero is getting 14/1 on the call but how many outs can we give him? Id say only 2. Theres a good chance that villian has hit a set here or even the straight. Even with the implied odds this would be a bad call.

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Set or a straight... monsters, K9 should rightly 3bet this (heck I might 3 bet 75s if I feel like it). Peel one off. You already paid for it big time. That's what I said, if you decide to raise him you obviously think you are in good enough shape to continue. If you think that, there's no reason not to peel one off now getting 14:1. If you don't think so you shouldn't have raised to start with.

Grease · #12 01-12-2007, 02:02 PM

How do you only assign the hero as having 2 outs?

I think he has at least three, and a T might be an out as well. I think we can give the hero 4 outs, which means that a call is in order.

Not only that, but folding the flop to the 3-bet looks absolutely horrid, IMO.

#13 01-12-2007, 04:02 PM

my point is that i wanna play against mp1's betting range, but i don't wanna play against his 3-betting range. i think they're not the same at all, in my experience, in that 3/6 stars game, with this kind of player.

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I think he has at least three, and a T might be an out as well. I think we can give the hero 4 outs, which means that a call is in order.

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i don't want to call when i strongly suspect i need runner-runner to win.

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Not only that, but folding the flop to the 3-bet looks absolutely horrid, IMO.

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lol i don't give a damn what it looks like.

HoneyBadger · #14 01-12-2007, 04:04 PM

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lol i don't give a damn what it looks like.

[/ QUOTE ]Then why do you ask? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

#15 01-12-2007, 04:08 PM

i meant i ask for arguments, not for "folding looks very awful, whereas calling is really sexy, call"

that said, i really appreciate you taking the time to discuss the hand with me and answer my post.

James. · #16 01-12-2007, 04:27 PM

since you feel obligated to fold to the 3bet getting 14-1 closing the action HU, do you REALLY think it's a good move to raise the flop? i'm not saying i don't like raising the flop, i just wanted your thoughts on that. seems to me you justify the raise as a way to improve your chances to win, but the exact opposite happend. it may have cost you the pot, no?

i would rather peel for one sb and risk getting outdrawn than raise for 2sb and risk folding a hand that has a reasonable chance to win. i would have still raised the flop, but i would call the 3bet and see the turn.

and someone mentioned this, and it bears repeating. it's not particulary good to raise and then fold(ESPECIALLY for one sb in a big pot)on the same round versus a fairly straightforward, semipassive player. why? pretty simple. the next time you're in a hand with them they may think, "this guy folds when i raise, my hand isn't that good so maybe i'll try to raise". see what happens? an otherwise straightforward, nontricky player becomes tricky. he plays more correctly against you and can actually make your life a bit harder at the table. that is not a reason in and of itself to make the call, but given the odds, your position and your hand it adds up to one for me.

#17 01-13-2007, 08:43 AM

james,

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since you feel obligated to fold to the 3bet getting 14-1 closing the action HU, do you REALLY think it's a good move to raise the flop? seems to me you justify the raise as a way to improve your chances to win, but the exact opposite happend. it may have cost you the pot, no?

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i don't see it that way; i think it's like if you were saying: i'm glad i didn't raised, that way i don't know i'm way behind and can still continue in the hand and try to hit.
i think once i'm 3-bet, i'm happy to let it go for 2sb. if i had just called the flop and then hit, it would have cost me more money. (i'm going with my read he has more than a pair here, or maybe A9.) so if i called the 3-bet and then hit, it would have costed me even more money.
by raising, i think i either improved my chances to win the hand if i had some outs, or gained information and was able to get rid of my hand for 2 sb if i was way behind.

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the next time you're in a hand with them they may think, "this guy folds when i raise, my hand isn't that good so maybe i'll try to raise".

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yes, true. but the next time, i may also have a real hand and 3-bet that turn c/r...

BigBadBabar · #18 01-13-2007, 08:45 AM

aid, i disagree when you say that on the flop play 'we want to stay in the hand.' i don't know what we want to stay in for--we didn't hit anything, our ace outs are probably dirty, and we're a lot of the time up against a made hand or a pair already. i would just fold the flop. given that you didn't, i would call the 3bet and fold the turn unimproved.

HoneyBadger · #19 01-13-2007, 08:50 AM

Don't you see that it's weird when you think your hand is good for 2 bets, but not for 1 in a larger pot?

Anytime that is the case, it wasn't good for 2 bets either.

BigBadBabar · #20 01-13-2007, 09:08 AM

badger, agreed, but i think raising then folding to the 3bet like that is icky, we've almost managed to build up enough of a pot to make it worth chasing our outs, plus for image purposes people may start taking shots at you if you do that. but i wouldn't have raised the flop to begin with.