what to do on the river? Casino AZ 20/40

[MitchL]

Ive been in these situations alot lately where I am wa/wb. I like playing passive head up, but not three handed. You need to find out where you are early. The river decision shouldnt be the problem in this hand. The flop and turn are most important here. Since you played the flop and turn passively you have unwittingly made the river the decision point. I would either cr the flop and fold to a turn raise, or cr turn and fold to a 3 bet unless you have specific reads that he gets way out of line.

[dark_horse]

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If you are going to chk/fold this flop, there is no reason to call another bet pf, first of all. Secondly, is there any reason to believe he is not 3betting TT-QQ (at the very least)?

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The 1st point I disagree with, but I guess check/folding the flop is in fact insane. He could be betting the flop when checked to him even though he hates the ace with his big pair. All this talk about making a play for the pot.. does it really make sense? I mean, I guess you'd depend on your really tight image to get the guy off his good ace, but if he indeed has AK, you'll feel pretty foolish. And of course you have the passive in the blind to worry about as well. You can't check/raise him out, and he probably won't read your c/r of the field as strength, he'll just shrug and call. This is a pretty awful spot. I guess check/calling the flop is ok but you have no idea where you're at, and spending all those bets to 1. see where you're at and 2. try to make a play for the pot could just be -EV spewage. you might check/call the flop but you have no idea what you want to see on the turn. if you improve it could just cost you more, and for all you know the passive in the blind isn't going anywhere with his ace if a bomb went off. blech

check/call the flop, check/fold the turn. two players called your man on the flop. if he bets the turn he has an ace. he knows the player in the blind is passive. if he checks behind on the turn you're good and you probably have the blind outkicked. if the turn gets checked around and the passive player bets, call, and if he checks, valuebet. this is all assuming he didn't fold the turn in the first place. the way it was played, i'd fold the turn too.

[CardSharpCook]

dude, no one is suggesting that you try to get a better hand to fold. The question is just whether your ace is good or not. it is an acceptable line to assume that he checks 88-QQ on the turn and to fold if he bets. Check folding the river is a fine line too. A "bad" line would be rasing at any point because you're not getting ANY good action. The other bad line would be to check/fold the flop.

What part of my first statement did you disagree with? Flopping top pair is about the best you can hope for when your weak ace gets 3bet. So.... if you can't continue when the best reasonable outcome occurs..... than you shouldn't continue to the flop at all, right?

[SA125]

When I'm 3 beat by what may be a dominating hand, I usually c/r the flop and fold to a 3 bet. If called, I'd lead the turn and fold to a raise.

I used to think ch/c'ing down was okay here. But the problem is, in the long run, the only river bet that goes in is when you're behind.

Similar situation is calling down with a PP on a rag board hoping the other guy has AK UI. -EV

If they fold to a flop c/r or on the turn, so be it. They weren't paying off a river anyway. Only you were.

[metalpest]

The fact that the queen came makes it less likely that he holds a queen kicker. I think this is still a call.

I agree with playing the flop harder. One possiblity I had considered was KQ, which you had beat on the flop. If he holds queens, you would have keep him from seeing the river.

[dark_horse]

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no one is suggesting that you try to get a better hand to fold.

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The first response to this post said something about needing to make a play for the pot earlier in the hand. Maybe I misunderstood him.

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What part of my first statement did you disagree with?

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That if you're going to c/f the flop then you shouldn't call the 3bet preflop. You could flop trip jacks, broadway, maybe even two pair (although that'd be a little dicey). I understand why you said it in theory, but if a certain flop comes and there's certain action, I could check/fold the flop after I've seen it. I'll concede it's not a great line, but I wouldn't call it horrible. Not in this spot..

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Flopping top pair is about the best you can hope for when your weak ace gets 3bet. So.... if you can't continue when the best reasonable outcome occurs..... than you shouldn't continue to the flop at all, right?

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I'm much more comfortable if I flop top pair jacks than an ace here. Is that flawed thinking? If I see the flop comes jack high, I'm slightly more likely to feel that I outflopped him than if I flop an ace.

[SackUp]

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When I'm 3 beat by what may be a dominating hand, I usually c/r the flop and fold to a 3 bet. If called, I'd lead the turn and fold to a raise.

I used to think ch/c'ing down was okay here. But the problem is, in the long run, the only river bet that goes in is when you're behind.

Similar situation is calling down with a PP on a rag board hoping the other guy has AK UI. -EV

If they fold to a flop c/r or on the turn, so be it. They weren't paying off a river anyway. Only you were.

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why do you want to fold 2-6 outers? People will think they are value betting or payoff your bets a ton here with a worse hand.

[SA125]

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why do you want to fold 2-6 outers? People will think they are value betting or payoff your bets a ton here with a worse hand.

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OP said he felt 3 bettor had a big hand. My point is for those situations on the river and getting there by ch/c'ing.

If they keep betting when you're ch/c'ing, I think you're way more likely to be behind if they put that last bet in. So the river is way more likely to be -EV for that line.

[mongidig]

Given this particular board I don't like the check-call to the river line. There are just too many ways a three better has hit his hand here. If the board came with just an Ace and a couple rags this line would make more sense. In fact against more passive opponents I would probably take the check-call, check-call, bet line here.

I would just bet here. If he folds his QQ,JJ etc thats fine its a decent pot to take down. If he raises and the SB calls I would call and check-fold the turn. It doesn't sound like your opponent would be nutty enough to bet the turn again given the action if you weren't beat. With the protected pot situation its also far less likely he will bet the turn if not ahead and may well check it through in some situations.

If the SB didn't call and it was heads up I would just fold right there. This assumes that your opponent isn't the type to get out of line. The problem with calling is that 1) you are probably beat and possibly drawing close to dead and 2) you may hit a card on the turn that improves your hand but still leaves you behind causing you to lose more bets.

As played I would call the river and consider it an investment when you get to see what your opponent was three betting with.

[dark_horse]

by the way, folding preflop in early position with AJo isn't bad either!