I hate schneids

[cartman]

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ok, but what is that? i 4bet preflop. that narrows my range a bit. he 3bet preflop vs. my open which, given my position, was not necessarily a steal. nothing makes sense for him other than something like 55 that doesn't want me to take a free river card, and against that hand i have to call.

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I'm really not sure what specifically he could have. But his range is plenty wide preflop and he is capable of peeling with all of it. He can have any of the pairs out there as well as a variety of pocket pairs. If you knew you had 6 outs then you could call the turn and fold the river. Since you don't it's a little more difficult. I did overlook the pot size originally and it is probably closer to call for me than I realized. I still think I have to fold unless I think he is somewhat likely to have a draw.

[phish]

he has A7. call it down.

[MacGuyV]

I don't know. If you're in his spot how often would you expect him to fold the river after calling the turn and as a corollary how often would you expect him to bluff the river if you called the turn?
Sometimes I play a big hand like this because it's a lot less obvious turn 3bet attempt than if you donk/call the flop. I'm not sure if anyone else does this though.
One thing I am confident of is I doubt he respects your preflop 4bet as much as you think he does.

[danzasmack]

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fish like to donkbet turn when they pickup a draw

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so, he has KcQc or some variation here?

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Bob,

I know pretty much everyone gives you [censored] for [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]ing schneids on this site. Wouldn't you know his range better than us? It's not what would schneids 3-bet here pf, but what would he 3-bet you with pf?

I play with krantz a lot. I will 3-bet him lite because he opens lite, so he started capping me lite. So against him I am usually looking to bet/3bet this turn, even if it's just a draw. Because he has ace hi a lot.

How does schneids play at you here? I feel like any answer I give is worse than yours should be.

[Barry]

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It's not what would schneids 3-bet here pf, but what would he 3-bet you with pf?

I play with krantz a lot. I will 3-bet him lite because he opens lite, so he started capping me lite. So against him I am usually looking to bet/3bet this turn, even if it's just a draw. Because he has ace hi a lot.

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There may be a lot that's applicable here. PB has had a bit of an inferiority complex vis a vis Mike in the past. In his posts recently his is showing that he's fighting back, perhaps now raising and 4-beting light PF.

With respect to the hand, you play against Mike a fair amount of the time. How much does he go for the c/c, donk/3-bet line nowadays? How often does he mix that up with draws? Have you been folding much of the time or have you been going to showdown a lot.

If I assume that you are on a "I'm not going to let Mike push me around anymore" mode, and since you 4-bet PF he's much more likely to have you in bad shape than than he's firing w/ air or a draw. The chances that you are ahead (even if you are ahead he probably has lots of outs) or have 6 outs are not high enough for you to continue vs. you being behind to something like AT or A9 and having 3 outs for you to do anything but fold here.

[kurosh]

This is completely read and history dependent. I don't think he ever folds to a raise here though.

[PokerBob]

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fish like to donkbet turn when they pickup a draw

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so, he has KcQc or some variation here?

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Bob,

I know pretty much everyone gives you [censored] for [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]ing schneids on this site. Wouldn't you know his range better than us? It's not what would schneids 3-bet here pf, but what would he 3-bet you with pf?



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there are many things i could say about my man [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for schneids, but at this point all i'd like to share is that we do not play together nearly as often as most likely think. in the past he has viewed me as weak-tight and rather straight-forward. i 4bet preflop so that he could fold a hand like AQ UI later on in the hand, and perhaps a smaller pair if the board got scary.

your question is a good one though, and i do not know what he would 3bet me preflop with here. he may do it more lightly as he may think i will be scared of it, i'm just not sure as we really have not played all that much against one another. i do know that he is capable of having just about anything at any time in the canterbury 30 game, as he likes to intentionally put himself in odd spots to challenge himself.

goofball made a great observation when talking about this and via AIM. he said "i think that this is a great time to ask yourself 'what does he want me to do here?'"

[Victor]

"in the past he has viewed me as weak-tight and rather straight-forward. i 4bet preflop so that he could fold a hand like AQ UI later on in the hand, and perhaps a smaller pair if the board got scary."

you say this in just about every post you make with schnieds or bk or whoever. i would imagine at this point they realize you are capable of burning money and allow you to do so.

[danzasmack]

So Victor,

Call or fold?

EDIT: FWIW I agree and fold.

[Barry]

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but at this point all i'd like to share is that we do not play together nearly as often as most likely think.

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I'm not sure how often you play at the same table as him or how often you think that we think that you play against him. For me a session of decent length 3 or 4 times a month on a regular basis would be more than enough to be enough.

Heck, I'm in Vegas only 4 or 5 times a year; but can remember how many of the folks play even if I only see them a couple of times each trip.