Can Not Ready Argue Against This?

[UpstateMatt]

David:

I've been following these various heaven/hell/christian threads pretty closely. Mostly I agree with what you are saying in respect to the narrow issue of the ultimate fate of non-believers in the eyes of certain fundamentalists.

One question I have, though, is whether you are more upset about the fact that believers and non-believer are separated post-death regardless of their moral character, or about the fact they morally good non-believers are assigned to a "immoral" end, "hell." I take it that we are working within a system in which everybody has to go somewhere. And I understand that the "bad" people (i.e. cold-blooded child murderers and rapists) definitely would go to hell, even in the implicit alternative you are proposing. Thus my question: does it bother you more that the fundamentalist sees the nonbeliever going to hell, or that the fundamentalists sees the non-believer NOT going to heaven?

To put it another way, what if the design was as follows: when people die, they got to place X, and there is no moral connotation to it, like there is with hell. However, true believers go somewhere else, place Y, but again no moral connotation. So that when you die, true believers go one place, and everyone else goes somehwhere else. How do you react to that?

I'm just honestly curious about your opinion.

best
matt

[RayBornert]

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every human past present and future will encounter the centrifuge - it is the ultimate objective standard capable of sorting at the quantum level.


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Who's in charge of the centrifuge or who made it?

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this answer depends on who you talk to. the concept of a scientific
and objective centrifuge is valid and is independent of any answer to this question.

i ascribe the existence of the centrifuge and it's design and purpose to the god i define.

my personal view is that the centrifuge is a neutral tool. it is what it is. my view is that both god and those whose memories and experiences are sorted by the centrifuge see it as a valuable thing - much the same way that both me and my wife think it's valuable for me to take a shower after i run for a mile on a hot summer day so as to sort me from my stink.

another analogy might be the dennis the menace scenario:
you're 5 years old and you go outside to play and roll in the grass and sweat and stink and contact dog poo; upon returning to the house in the evening there is no such thing as avoiding a mother and a bath.

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What does the centrifuge do with acts that are outwardly good but done for evil motives?

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it sorts the memories and experiences of the individual into value and waste at a granularity beyond what we might be able to comprehend.

read this new testament quote:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr004.html#12

and consider that your god might have centrifuge capability beyond what you currently imagine.

edit: NR you should re-read every new-testament instance of jesus talking harshly; but imagine that he fully understands the centrifuge but he's talking to people with a pass/fail understanding of justice.


ray

[NotReady]

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i ascribe the existence of the centrifuge and it's design and purpose to the god i define.

my personal view is that the centrifuge is a neutral tool. it is what it is


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These two statements seem contradictory.

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it sorts the value from the waste at a granularity beyond what we might be able to comprehend.


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What if the waste = 100%?

Also, from that quote may I infer that the centrifuge is God's Word?

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i ascribe the existence of the centrifuge and it's design and purpose to the god i define.

my personal view is that the centrifuge is a neutral tool. it is what it is


[/ QUOTE ]

These two statements seem contradictory.

[ QUOTE ]

it sorts the value from the waste at a granularity beyond what we might be able to comprehend.


[/ QUOTE ]

What if the waste = 100%?

Also, from that quote may I infer that the centrifuge is God's Word?

[/ QUOTE ]

a shower is a neutral tool to remove waste from my body. the shower doesn't have any feelings about me; it is a neutral tool; the designer of the shower presumably understood what i wanted from a shower - the capability to remove stink.

the centrifuge erases all waste; only value remains.
0% value in = 0% value out.

ray

[NotReady]

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0% value in = 0% value out.


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Annihilation? I don't necessarily disagree with this, I even like it. I just can't support it from Scripture.

[David Sklansky]

Here is a slightly blasphemous analogy. There are five categories of people in regards to my poker writings.

1. Those who have seen them and rejected them.

2. Those who have never seen them but play according to them.

3. Those who have seen them and play according to them.

4. Those who have never seen them and don't play according to them.

5. Those who have seen them, accept them, but haven't studied them to the point where they apply them. Even though they are the most likely category to ask me for an autograph.

When it comes to how much I want to see someone succeed,#3 is obviously on the top and #1 is obviously last. Akin to the charitable Christian and the criminal atheist. No one would have a problem with that. But some, analogous to Fundamentalists, think that #5 is a clear 2nd. And I don't. For me #2 is the category I'm rooting for after #3. I think most people with a following feel the same way. They tolerate sycophants but are put off by the fact that they don't fully appreciate the concepts they are espousing.

So if mere human experts would rather "be with" those who understand and follow the concepts they espouse (even if they are unaware those concepts originated with them) rather than "be with" fans who don't follow those concepts, and this in spite of the ego boost they might get from groupies, then isn't it reasonable to assume that God would be even more egoless?

PS I see I left out #4. I'll let BluffThis deal with that.

[NotReady]

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For me #2 is the category I'm rooting for after #3.


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The Bible says #2, #3 and #5 don't exist. No one plays Sklansky. You must die to atone for their shortcomings. Then those who believe you did so can associate with you. And with your help, they can gradually learn to fold KJo UTG.

[RayBornert]

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0% value in = 0% value out.


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Annihilation? I don't necessarily disagree with this, I even like it. I just can't support it from Scripture.

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sure you can. you just haven't ever tried. have some mercy on yourself for reading scripture with a typical pass/fail saved/unsaved system of justice and instead allow the god you love to have exceptional ability to retain all that was good in the life of any human that's ever lived. god has nothing to lose by doing this.

allow god the power to erase all waste (this includes the memory of both the raped and the rapist) without being obligated to punish the rapist.

read the scriptures where jesus talks trash to the religous leaders and ask yourself what (v,w) numbers he saw above their heads.

in fact re-read all of the gospels and imagine he could see the (v,w) numbers above everyone's head.

re-read it knowing that everyone he talked to believed in a system of punitive justice (the $5 thief gets a few lashes, the murderers get stoned or crucified). then imagine that when he uses the word "forgiven" he is referring to the non-punitive erasure of the centrifuge - and then notice how very greatful people are to learn that god intends to forgive (erase) their waste and not torture them for it.

this is the real unpolluted gospel dude.

ray

[RAISETOWIN]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

every human past present and future will encounter the centrifuge - it is the ultimate objective standard capable of sorting at the quantum level.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
Who's in charge of the centrifuge or who made it?

[/ QUOTE ]

this answer depends on who you talk to. the concept of a scientific
and objective centrifuge is valid and is independent of any answer to this question.

i ascribe the existence of the centrifuge and it's design and purpose to the god i define.

my personal view is that the centrifuge is a neutral tool. it is what it is. my view is that both god and those whose memories and experiences are sorted by the centrifuge see it as a valuable thing - much the same way that both me and my wife think it's valuable for me to take a shower after i run for a mile on a hot summer day so as to sort me from my stink.

another analogy might be the dennis the menace scenario:
you're 5 years old and you go outside to play and roll in the grass and sweat and stink and contact dog poo; upon returning to the house in the evening there is no such thing as avoiding a mother and a bath.

[ QUOTE ]
What does the centrifuge do with acts that are outwardly good but done for evil motives?

[/ QUOTE ]

it sorts the memories and experiences of the individual into value and waste at a granularity beyond what we might be able to comprehend.

read this new testament quote:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr004.html#12

and consider that your god might have centrifuge capability beyond what you currently imagine.

edit: NR you should re-read every new-testament instance of jesus talking harshly; but imagine that he fully understands the centrifuge but he's talking to people with a pass/fail understanding of justice.


ray

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Ok so let me try to understand this by translating it into everyday spoken english.

The centrifuge is a place where all of our memories are basically seperated into, good or acceptable ones and evil or unacceptable ones according to the judgement of GOD. The reason for such a place is because GOD cannot tolerate the mear existance, thought, or precence of evil in his Kingdom.

Is this the general idea without all the unneeded crap that you guys feel the need to add.

[NotReady]

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allow god the power to erase all waste (this includes the memory of both the raped and the rapist) without being obligated to punish the rapist.


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If waste=100% and all waste is erased, what's left? What are we if not our memories? If someone's memory is completely erased, isn't he a completely different person?