Someone encourage me to finish Navarro's book

[*TT*]

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I guess I've kind of gone into this book with wrong mindset as I've never placed much value in tells (especially at the low to low-mid limits that I play).

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And you shouldn't, thats the problem with the book... the truth is that tells are a fraction of your decision process, yet Navaro doesn't really disclose that to the reader. True tells are the betting patterns of your opponents, put far more strength behind betting patterns than the way someone shakes their right foot.

I read this book months before it was released, I was sent a pre-release copy. Although I do admit its the beast treatment on the existence behind tells to date and its focus on observation is 100% correct, I think the books falls flat because the author's fundamental understanding of the game is flawed - reading tells does not make you an expert player, reading betting patterns and placing your opponent on a hand range does - and none of this is covered within the text. Therefore unless the reader is already highly skilled I cannot recommend it to a reader. Its a good book for the right consumer,unfortunately the right consumer is not the target audience.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Mhoram]

I have a female friend who always covers her cards with her hand when she has a monster, protecting it. I get out of the way. A male friend who often takes a swallow of his drink when a card comes that makes him nervous. Taking a drink doesn't necessarily meant he's nervous and not drinking doesn't always mean he feels safe, but taken in context, this has given me good insight into his hand, helping to rule out the nuts.
The old one about looking at your chips after seeing your hole cards or a great flop is still golden.
Steepled hands indicating a strong hand seems to ring true, and when they go away (along with other tells like backing away from the table or touching the face) after a bad flop or turn or river card, let me know something has gone wrong for that person's hand.

Lots of little stuff like that I learned from the book. You have to watch your players and see which ones they do frequently, and watch the results of their hands, once you've done that you have a pretty reliable tell for making borderline decisions. If nothing else learn to recite "Freeze, Flight, Fight" and go through each stage looking for tells that indicate one of these, you see anything that falls into these categories and you should be more likely to call or raise big.

Tells definately provide a small edge, and against bad players in home games, that edge helps a ton if the cards aren't falling right for you.

[ApeAttack]

I just finished the book and have not had a chance to search for tells in a casino setting. I like this book much better than Caro's.

Navarro mentions on a couple occasions that <u>'limbic responses' are more pronounced when people are under a lot of stress</u>. If you are playing 2/4 limit game at a casino, most people aren't going to be under a lot of stress and these tells might be less likely to show up (of course, the people at a 2/4 table are less 'sophisticated' and might not pay attention to their own behavior much, so tells might be more prevalent there). I would imagine tells will appear more often in a no-limit game where stress levels are higher.

Navarro suggests filming yourself during a home game to see how many tells you give off (film from the side so you can see your feet, the 'most honest' of all body parts). Maybe you can film the whole table and see if you can spot tells afterwards.

[SellingtheDrama]

Yeah, I agree the book is not a text that makes the difference between winning and losing at poker, but can be the difference in a few pots.

I'd estimate that I make maybe one decision every couple hours of live play based on what I learned here.

But at my limits/play time that's a nice chunk of cash and was well worth my time imo to read. There are most definately worse ways I could have prepared for a poker session.

[larrondo]

I've got to say, the hokey writing style, irritating puns, self-congratulation, and boring repetition made this one tough going for me. There are some useful tips in there, sure, but I wish there was a cliff notes version.

[7n7]

[ QUOTE ]
I've got to say, the hokey writing style, irritating puns, self-congratulation, and boring repetition made this one tough going for me. There are some useful tips in there, sure, but I wish there was a cliff notes version.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear! Hear! Fyi, I still haven't picked it back up.

My issues with it specifically:

1. Overal writing style is weak...and actually crossed over the border into annoying IMO...and I'm only 1/2-way into it.

2. Continuing TT's thoughts, Navarro presents tells as the primary difference between winning and losing players. That's just not true at all.

3. No recommendation for new players to gain experience in other facets of the game before concentrating on tells. If a new player habitually calls a raise/reraise with QTo and instead of fixing that, he/she is looking under the table at someone's feet...well, an exaggerated example, but you get my point.

I think my next step in finishing this book, may to be just deeply scan and type all the tells into Excel as another poster in this thread suggested.

I don't doubt that $$ can be made after reading this book and in some cases maybe a great read (b/c of a tell) will mean the difference between a winning and losing session.

However, I'm not convinced that this book is essential for anyone's collection. Sure, the more knowledge you have, the better, but this should be a topic visited when you're already a winning player. Again, IMO.

[*TT*]

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However, I'm not convinced that this book is essential for anyone's collection. Sure, the more knowledge you have, the better, but this should be a topic visited when you're already a winning player. Again, IMO.

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I am a winning player at rather high limits for many people, and I didn't see the urgency within the book at all. Since I read the book months before most of you even heard of it, you should revisit the original thread about the book in the archives when Navaro's writer was in a heated debate with me, its a great thread.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Matt Flynn]

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[ QUOTE ]

However, I'm not convinced that this book is essential for anyone's collection. Sure, the more knowledge you have, the better, but this should be a topic visited when you're already a winning player. Again, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a winning player at rather high limits for many people, and I didn't see the urgency within the book at all. Since I read the book months before most of you even heard of it, you should revisit the original thread about the book in the archMattives when Navaro's writer was in a heated debate with me, its a great thread.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

TT,

Do you feel the same about no-limit games?

Matt

[*TT*]

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TT,

Do you feel the same about no-limit games?

Matt

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I suck at no limit compared to limit games, but I am now playing NL as often as I play limit games (not just Hold'em) because as I think you would agree its best to go where the good games are. Since you are far more experienced than I am at NL, I would expect you to weigh in with an opinion rather than ask me - but I would anticipate a similar response - a treatment on tells without a matching discussion on betting patterns and player type analysis is flawed.

Interestingly enough I do believe you are precisely the type of reader that might be able to gain something from the book where as the vast majority of readers including all others who responded to this thread would be steered in the wrong direction of focusing on tell analysis rather then on betting patterns, but then again you may feel as I did that much of the psychology behind Navarro's thought process was common sense brought to us in more formal medical terminology. The book is a quick and easy read, it cant hurt to give it a try - I'm looking forward to reading your well educated opinion!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Kovner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TT,

Do you feel the same about no-limit games?

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I suck at no limit compared to limit games, but I am now playing NL as often as I play limit games (not just Hold'em) because as I think you would agree its best to go where the good games are. Since you are far more experienced than I am at NL, I would expect you to weigh in with an opinion rather than ask me - but I would anticipate a similar response - a treatment on tells without a matching discussion on betting patterns and player type analysis is flawed.

Interestingly enough I do believe you are precisely the type of reader that might be able to gain something from the book where as the vast majority of readers including all others who responded to this thread would be steered in the wrong direction of focusing on tell analysis rather then on betting patterns, but then again you may feel as I did that much of the psychology behind Navarro's thought process was common sense brought to us in more formal medical terminology. The book is a quick and easy read, it cant hurt to give it a try - I'm looking forward to reading your well educated opinion!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a winning player at 2/4 and 3/6 NL online. I understand that I have a long ways to go in improving my game, but I understand the game pretty well. I thought the book was a good read, as long as I snickered to myself everytime the writer showed an obvious misunderstanding of the game.
As long as you focus on reading betting patterns and then understand tha tells can help you in close decisions, this book is pretty good.