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#11
12-12-2006, 05:29 AM
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Re: Morality and Happiness
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] what would make you think that 'behaving morally' doesn't make some people happier than stealing some ones gum? [/ QUOTE ] Nothing, that then is the first option where the extent of your morality is that level which makes you happiest given everything else. [/ QUOTE ] I'm trying to come up with a situation where a person makes the choice that they believe will increase their misery quotient. I'm not saying there isn't one, but it's eluding me right now. luckyme [/ QUOTE ] How about something along the lines of falling on a grenade in a crowd of school kids? Would you argue that the knowledge of self sacrifice in the last instant of your life makes you happy enough to counteract the act itself? [/ QUOTE ] The two maximising happiness reasons for that sort of behavior are: 1) being very unhappy in your future life if you don't do it. 2) maximising happiness in your past life by being the sort of person who would throw yourself on the grenade if the situation arose (or at least believing yourself to be that sort of person and discovering you were right). I think its mainly the second. chez [/ QUOTE ] I've always been curious about how many people would actually make this choice... 
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#12
12-12-2006, 09:28 AM
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Re: Morality and Happiness
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Hard to see how we can do much that is not happiness oriented. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. In a more general sense, is it possible to do something that you don't want to do? Even if you are robbed at gunpoint and forced to give up your wallet, you do it because you want to do it, given your options. I cannot think of a possible act that was not performed by someone who wanted to do it. ~MagicMan
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#14
12-12-2006, 10:15 AM
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Re: Morality and Happiness
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I think the conscience is the evolutionary device to combine morality and satisfaction. Doesn't it just feel good to be honest and generous, even anonymously? I used to cynically think that a conscience was a weakness that restricted freedom by creating guilt. Maybe you'd want everyone to have a conscience (so they'll be nice) except for you. Instead, now I think it is easy to see how a conscience is beneficial even for the individual, by allowing someone to easily experience satisfaction. [/ QUOTE ] Holy crap, I think I just leveled up. Thanks.
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#15
12-12-2006, 10:19 AM
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Re: Morality and Happiness
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] what would make you think that 'behaving morally' doesn't make some people happier than stealing some ones gum? [/ QUOTE ] Nothing, that then is the first option where the extent of your morality is that level which makes you happiest given everything else. [/ QUOTE ] I'm trying to come up with a situation where a person makes the choice that they believe will increase their misery quotient. I'm not saying there isn't one, but it's eluding me right now. luckyme [/ QUOTE ] How about something along the lines of falling on a grenade in a crowd of school kids? Would you argue that the knowledge of self sacrifice in the last instant of your life makes you happy enough to counteract the act itself? [/ QUOTE ] The two maximising happiness reasons for that sort of behavior are: 1) being very unhappy in your future life if you don't do it. 2) maximising happiness in your past life by being the sort of person who would throw yourself on the grenade if the situation arose (or at least believing yourself to be that sort of person and discovering you were right). I think its mainly the second. chez [/ QUOTE ] I've always been curious about how many people would actually make this choice... [/ QUOTE ] 1.P(Granade = dud) > 0 2.xxx 3.Profit? I really dunno, but maybe.
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#18
12-12-2006, 12:12 PM
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Re: Morality and Happiness
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This got no play in the Sklansky forum but might generate some interesting discussion here. Should maximizing ones own personal happiness be a persons only goal in life or should a person give weight to things external to their own happiness equation? For example should a person try to be as moral a person as they can and then maximize their happiness or choose for their level of morality that which maximizes their happiness? Max (U) = (..., morality, ...) or Max (U) = (...)|morality [/ QUOTE ] Let's call it satisfaction instead of happiness. The only reason for one to take any action whatsoever, is to try and get to a state of more satisfaction than the previous one. The answer should then be obvious - If morality is important to you (directly or indirectly), you should care. Only if; and you should care in an amount proportional to the importance it has for you (again, directly or indirectly)
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#19
12-12-2006, 12:18 PM
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Re: Morality and Happiness
So I should murder rape and steal if that is that is going to give me the most satisfaction?
edit : Or is it just that I will and should doesn't come into it?
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#20
12-12-2006, 12:27 PM
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Re: Morality and Happiness
I think the point he's making is that you will murder rape and steal if that gives you the most satisfaction. "Should" has little to do with it. It's possible to make this definitionally true, but I don't know how meaningful that is.
This debate strikes me as similar to the "when does life begin" debate. Despite potential for something interesting, it always ends up being fluff. Rather than, "why does life have value, and according to what criteria must that value be determined," the question becomes "when is the magical point where something arbitrary that nobody will define or explain happens?" The term "happiness" is about as well-defined as the term "life." Therefore, it's virtually impossible to go anywhere until something of greater substance comes through. But here's a relevant question, isolated based on this specific example. Most people will experience greater "unhappiness" than "happiness" from rape and murder. The pain of remorse and fragmented identity seems almost always to outweigh the pleasure of the act itself. Even many who do commit such acts find them to be ultimately unpleasant. Is there anyone on earth who fully knows that such acts will be unpleasant and still commits them? And what's going on in such a person's mind? Is there anyone on earth who will truly find a net gain in satisfaction from these acts? And if so, are there any of these people who restrain themselves anyway? And what's going on in their minds?
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