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#11
12-12-2006, 02:21 AM
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Re: So What the Heck is Mutualism?
Here's something I just posted in the old thread, editted it away from there and reposting it here.
[ QUOTE ] How about the capitalists use the state to squash new competition? There was article linked in this thread, for example about someone trying to startup and sell milk cheaper and the corporations passed laws to get it shut down. [/ QUOTE ] I see. You're making a good argument for pure capitalism by the way. So you think that if government interventionalism was removed these coops would begin spreading? [ QUOTE ] And you and I both know the unregulated free market has never existed in history. [/ QUOTE ] o rly? Either way it's a sliding scale. More market restiriction lead to higher prices, less competition, less output, and less quality as opposed to less or no regulations. You can apply it to any market ever. Also a question from pvn that either missed or ignored - [ QUOTE ] The question is who is building apartments for people who need housing when you've eliminated any incentive for people to do so. [/ QUOTE ] 
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#12
12-12-2006, 02:31 AM
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Re: So What the Heck is Mutualism?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] we are fine with banks. it's unclear how renting is a voluntary transaction, nor how rent is legitimate. [/ QUOTE ] Unclear? If both sides agree to the transaction and neither is forcing the other to agree, it meets the definition of voluntary. How much clearer can it get? [/ QUOTE ] But it's pay rent or your out on the street. he's not putting a gun to your head but that doesn't mean it's not force. [ QUOTE ] If you're fine with banks, how do the prospective depositers keep from having their money simply stolen? Wouldn't the property of the depositers now be in possession of and made use by the banker? Is it not now his property, according to mutualist doctrine? And if banks are ok, what about interest? Isn't interest like a type of rent? The wikipedia article I'm reading about mutualism right now says that mutualists should be against interest. [/ QUOTE ] Why couldn't you have protection against such things just like you do now?
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#13
12-12-2006, 02:33 AM
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Re: So What the Heck is Mutualism?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How about the capitalists use the state to squash new competition? There was article linked in this thread, for example about someone trying to startup and sell milk cheaper and the corporations passed laws to get it shut down. [/ QUOTE ] I see. You're making a good argument for pure capitalism by the way. So you think that if government interventionalism was removed these coops would begin spreading? [/ QUOTE ] pure capitalism does not exist! [ QUOTE ] And you and I both know the unregulated free market has never existed in history. [/ QUOTE ] o rly? pokerstars, which is regulated by many european governments. good one.
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#14
12-12-2006, 02:41 AM
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Re: So What the Heck is Mutualism?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] we are fine with banks. it's unclear how renting is a voluntary transaction, nor how rent is legitimate. [/ QUOTE ] Unclear? If both sides agree to the transaction and neither is forcing the other to agree, it meets the definition of voluntary. How much clearer can it get? [/ QUOTE ] But it's pay rent or your out on the street. he's not putting a gun to your head but that doesn't mean it's not force. [/ QUOTE ] OK, so you eliminate rent. Now the people renting are, just as you predicted, out on the street. Good show. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you're fine with banks, how do the prospective depositers keep from having their money simply stolen? Wouldn't the property of the depositers now be in possession of and made use by the banker? Is it not now his property, according to mutualist doctrine? And if banks are ok, what about interest? Isn't interest like a type of rent? The wikipedia article I'm reading about mutualism right now says that mutualists should be against interest. [/ QUOTE ] Why couldn't you have protection against such things just like you do now? [/ QUOTE ] So property is based on possession, but people will need protection against other people taking ownership of their property if they are given temporary possession of it? So your explicit goal is something you must guard against? Sounds like a trip back to the drawing board is in order. Is the wikipedia article accurate? Are you down with "labor for labor" trade?
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#15
12-12-2006, 02:46 AM
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Re: So What the Heck is Mutualism?
[ QUOTE ]
But it's pay rent or your out on the street. he's not putting a gun to your head but that doesn't mean it's not force. [/ QUOTE ] Only if the prospective rentee has some right to the renter's property in the first place. Under this theory, you would be coercing someone for not giving them food, water, shelter, clothing, etc. Is that your contention? [ QUOTE ] Why couldn't you have protection against such things just like you do now? [/ QUOTE ] The only 'legal' protection I can see as of right now would be stuffing your money under a mattress. If mere possession and use of a commodity means the possesser/user is the owner, then anyone trying to deposit money in a bank has no legal recourse against a banker just stuffing the money in his pocket. Banks would essentially cease to exist. And you never addressed interest. Any thoughts?
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#17
12-12-2006, 02:57 AM
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Re: So What the Heck is Mutualism?
[ QUOTE ]
pure capitalism does not exist! [/ QUOTE ] Why is capitalism sans a state so difficult for you to wrap your head around? Either way this thread isn't about pure capitalism it's about mutualism. Do you think that if government intervention stopped that these coops would begin spreading? Why or why not? [ QUOTE ] pokerstars, which is regulated by many european governments. good one. [/ QUOTE ] If they do they're being very obtuse about it- [ QUOTE ] PokerStars is a registered legal business located in San José, Costa Rica. We abide by the laws and regulations where we do business. [/ QUOTE ] Either way congratulations on ignoring the issue. There is a sliding scale effect of more regulation leading to less success and the corollary. Why you would even debate the merits of this based on your view of the state is beyond me though. And good job on STILL avoiding this question- [ QUOTE ] The question is who is building apartments for people who need housing when you've eliminated any incentive for people to do so. [/ QUOTE ] Do you have an answer for this or are you just hoping it disappears?
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#19
12-12-2006, 03:01 AM
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Re: So What the Heck is Mutualism?
why do we need the state for legal protection and such?
shake, capitalism without a state is difficult to imagine because, well, capitalism and the state constantly collude with each other. naturally if you have systems of economic hierarchy, i think you'll see a state put in place to give it more support. pokerstars does not operate in anarchy, which is essentially what you are claiming. they abide by many government laws and regulations. apartments? why wouldn't the people who want housing help work on it? having a place to live seems like a pretty good incentive.
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#20
12-12-2006, 03:05 AM
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Re: So What the Heck is Mutualism?
[ QUOTE ]
why do we need the state for legal protection and such? [/ QUOTE ] Who's arguing that we do? [ QUOTE ] shake, capitalism without a state is difficult to imagine because, well, capitalism and the state constantly collude with each other. [/ QUOTE ] Careful, you're treading into argumentum ad ignorantium... [ QUOTE ] apartments? why wouldn't the people who want housing help work on it? having a place to live seems like a pretty good incentive. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe it was built before they were born or before they were looking for housing? Maybe they were in a different city? Who knows? Who cares? You're dodging a lot of questions. What are we supposed to think about that?
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