Stars $150. TPWK vs. a maniac

[FortunaMaximus]

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Easiest fold ever preflop.

Why are you guys considering a re-raise? The way to beat maniacs is not by re-raising out of the blinds with a mediocre holding.

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Yeah, you're right, actually, for a TAGgy style. So here's some more silly tl;dr [censored].

One possible reraise line I would take against a maniac, would be to reraise to isolate, which isn't necessary with a tight BB...

Fatten the pot, RR to 600, slight over-PSB shove out of the blind in the dark on flop. Rock the maniac back on his heels, force him into a uncomfortable decision by using his own strategy against him. Slightly more FE than a ram and jam PF knowing Q9s has a slight edge against his range, the RR allows you to signal more strength than you actually have, and he'll assume you played a pretty strong holding fast.

If you hit the board and he doesn't, you're probably ahead on probability alone. And if he's gonna call, he's probably behind enough times and needs to catch up. Yeah, when you're wrong, you're spewing chips across three tables, and that's a grossly suboptimal line.

[Bullet_Dodger]

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Cool. It's nice to articulate those concepts in a thread that isn't bogged down by inanities and egos

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I concur. Good contributions Fortuana.

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Easiest fold ever preflop.

Why are you guys considering a re-raise? The way to beat maniacs is not by re-raising out of the blinds with a mediocre holding.

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I don't agree. He's been raising 80% of his hands, so Q9s is definitely ahead of his hand range. He's also been ridiculously aggressive post flop. Therefore, If I hit any part of my hand, whether its 9xx, Qxx, Q9x, JTK, JT8, etc ... he’s going to most likely double me up. You're risking 100 to gain 1600. If I don't hit, I can easily check/fold out of there, so being OOP isn’t that much of a problem.

We consider re-raising an option to isolate UTG, fold out BB, and attempt to outplay him post flop. This is because we feel were a much better player than he is, and we want to take advantage of that. The only problem is we might be a little too shallow to make this move. This would be a better play if we were more deep stacked, that’s why I only called.

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One possible reraise line I would take against a maniac, would be to reraise to isolate, which isn't necessary with a tight BB...

Fatten the pot, RR to 600, slight over-PSB shove out of the blind in the dark on flop. Rock the maniac back on his heels, force him into a uncomfortable decision by using his own strategy against him. Slightly more FE than a ram and jam PF knowing Q9s has a slight edge against his range, the RR allows you to signal more strength than you actually have, and he'll assume you played a pretty strong holding fast.

If you hit the board and he doesn't, you're probably ahead on probability alone. And if he's gonna call, he's probably behind enough times and needs to catch up. Yeah, when you're wrong, you're spewing chips across three tables, and that's a grossly suboptimal line.

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That's an interesting line, but what does this accomplish that a standard raise to t350 or t400 won't? The problem I have with this line is it makes it easier for the UTG raiser to play perfect. When he calls, his ranger has shrunk dramatically where he probably has Q9s crushed. (he’s crazy, but I don’t think he'd call 600 with < Q9s. I would think he'd draw the line somewhere) Also, that gives him a higher likelihood of hitting the flop harder than we do.

Not to say I don't like the line, its interesting and might be a great way to accumulate chips early on.

[FortunaMaximus]

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(he's crazy, but I don't think he'd call 600 with < Q9s. I would think he'd draw the line somewhere)

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Yes, and he'd be likely to 3-bet his pairs here.

For 22-JJ, Q9s has slightly better equity than AKo, for an example. Tenths of a percent though, so it's practically identical. The odds on winning differ by only 0.02%. More draws mostly. It'll get him to fold his trash, and you don't mind that, as it allows you to accumulate chips.

You have to think he'll flatcall QQ+ a fair % of the time and let you commit on the flop. Even maniacs are predictable, although the chances of him having those holdings are low enough to not have to worry about it too much.

All in all, the PF RR is the worst line to take, because you're simply getting it wrong too often, and not exploiting the maniac nearly enough.

[kurtkatt]

i think im taking a conservative line on this flop, calling c-bet planning on betting out on any non-heart turn and c/r or c/f a heart turn depending on his action there.

i want to know what bb wanna do, and he will probably play very straight forward on this flop with that action. and i don´t think im very concerned with giving a free card here since he will not know our hand until we make a move and he will probably not folding Ah or Kh if we raise him on flop. Smaller hearts will probably be a bit scared on turn when the fourflush shows. if he commits himself on a heart turn im folding otherwise im probably putting him to the test.

although i don´t know if i lose value with this line??

[1st and 15]

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Yup. And that's essentially why I find tournament poker a far superior challenge to any other spread. No hand is ever static.

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Perfectly said, epitomizes how I feel about tournaments vs. ring games. Very nice discussion in this thread all around.

[0evg0]

is OP a typo where it says UTG leads? Are you saying you checked, and then BB checked, and then UTG bet?

[1st and 15]

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is OP a typo where it says UTG leads? Are you saying you checked, and then BB checked, and then UTG bet?

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This confused me as well at first. Though it only makes sense to assume that OP just left out the 2checks and check/check/UTG bet is what happened.

[Bullet_Dodger]

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All in all, the PF RR is the worst line to take, because you're simply getting it wrong too often, and not exploiting the maniac nearly enough

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Yeah. In certain instances a re-raise might be the better line, but in this spot I think you can find other ways to exploit UTG's weaknesses without risking so much of your own stack.

Anyways, here's what went down on the flop ...

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets 150, Hero raises to 450, BB folds, UTG calls 300.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero?


Looking back, my reasons for raising the flop were first that I wanted more info on BB. If I raise and he 3-bets, I know I'm beat, and can easily fold. He is never, and I mean never 3-betting here with something that does not beat top pair weak kicker. If I flat call UTG and he comes along, I have no idea where he's at. (or UTG for that matter) So I'm in the middle of a maniac and a nit, both have shown interest, I have no idea where either of them are in the hand and my hand itself is extremely venerable. I did not want that scenario.

I also wanted to price UTG if he's making this bet with just a draw. I may not get him to fold, but at least If I raise I'll make it so he'll be making the wrong move by calling. (we can get into pot odds/implied odds but i believe hes making a mistake calling me down with a lone heart.)

Bottom line, I know im ahead of UTG 90% of the time, and BB is folding 90% of the time. Calling is terrible, I believe its between folding and raising.

My only problem here is that a 3-bet from UTG leaves me in an awful spot.

On the turn, the board a blank fell. Do I continue to price him on a potential J, middle pair, or heart draw. Or do I slow down not wanting to tangle with him more, or fearing the maniac has picked up a hand.

Hero has 1125 left in a pot that is now 1275. I'll explain my thoughts in a bit.

[Bullet_Dodger]

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is OP a typo where it says UTG leads? Are you saying you checked, and then BB checked, and then UTG bet?

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Yeah, we both checked to UTG who lead. I explained that a few posts down. Sorry about that.

[0evg0]

fold. it'd be a gross spot vs just the pfr, but sandwiched between him and what seem's to be a fairly tight bb is really bad. especially if bb can c/push a nakedish K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here. if he's able to do that, it's an easy fold. without that knowledge, it's a fold, but a bit closer. raising here is obv horrible though.