I Mean You Might As Well End It

[Magic_Man]

I'm not really sure why the responses to this post are so harsh. As an agnostic/atheist/whatever, I struggle with OP's same thoughts. I think of it more in terms of memory. Memory is the only way we have of "knowing" our lives. Remember the movie "Total Recall"? They inserted memories of fun vacations into people's heads, and it was just as good as actually going on the vacation. If you don't remember what you did this morning, then it's just as good as your having not done it. If the atheists are right, then when this is all over, how you lived your life won't matter. This is why many atheists wish that there was a God. Unless you are fooling yourself, how do atheists find meaning/happiness in life?

~MagicMan

[MaxWeiss]

In the grand scheme of the whole universe(s) and all of time, it could certainly be argued that nothing really matters. Yeah, nothing we do affects much on that scale. BUT since we are here, there is no reason we cannot try to enjoy it, no reason not to try to help others enjoy it, and no reason not to try and continue to expand and advance ourselves at large. Just because you finally woke up and realized there's no grand cosmic plan for you (born again atheist???) doesn't mean that you cannot make an impression on the universe, and it doesn't mean that mankind cannot go on for quite a long while. I personally have derived some basic goals for life, given that after I die I cease to exist: be happy, try to make others (mainly loved ones) happy and show them that you care, help others, and advance humanity. Most of how I live and plan my life is based on accomplishing those things in my lifetime. But hey if you want to go "off" yourself, like I said, it's not going to really do much in the whole grad scheme of things. But why would you??? Don't you feel extraordinarily lucky to have evolved and become aware to the point that you can appreciate life for what it is??? No misunderstandings, misconceptions or lies. Just as it is. Beautiful and wondrous. (And before you do go kill yourself, think of those who love you and how much that would irreparably hurt them. Don't be selfish like that, don't just give up. Find support, and create your own purpose.)

[MaxWeiss]

It will matter how you lived. You have the capacity to affect others and their lives and future. You can do lasting good and harm. Your own future happiness and others' future happiness have value.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't remember what you did this morning, then it's just as good as your having not done it. If the atheists are right, then when this is all over, how you lived your life won't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you don't remember, it DOES matter. You affect others.

[ QUOTE ]
This is why many atheists wish that there was a God. Unless you are fooling yourself, how do atheists find meaning/happiness in life?

[/ QUOTE ]

We create meaning for ourselves. Why does happiness and meaning of life have to come from an outside source??? I am happy and my life has purpose because I have the ability to enjoy life and the ability to affect others in a positive way. I can leave lasting good, and take comfort in knowing that others will enjoy it long after I die. Again, what makes meaning from within less meaningful?? Just because it's not part of some higher plan??? But it is. Just not some "God".

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really sure why the responses to this post are so harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]
maybe the tone that suggests we find our lives worthless or even of negative value. I don't care what he thinks unless he tries to do us a favour.

The op sounded very bitter to me but that's no excuse to project his problems onto us.

chez

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Logically speaking, it would make no difference if you killed yourself right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Logically speaking it would almost certainly make a difference. Logically placing some sort of value on that difference would require some valuative premises to work from. Logic can't provide meaning, not even if you're Christian.

The Christians on this forum have recently become fond of saying that because reason doesn't suggest that any one thing is "better" than another, everything must be considered equal from an atheist perspective. That makes about as much sense as saying that because a hammer can't be used to do arithmetic, an abacus is superior to a hammer. Logic is a tool, and it can't be used to ascribe values. That's not what it's good for. If you want me to do arithmetic, I'll pull out a calculator and then we'll talk about superiority.

If I've misinterpreted and you aren't trying to rag on atheists (sorry, we're getting a lot of this stuff lately), then... According to pure reason, it's no "better" to live than to die. However, reason must work according to some set of premises. You seem to include a number of loaded assumptions in your OP - what is the true implication of those assumptions? I don't believe that it's necessarily what you're suggesting.

At any rate, my assumptions about value are very different, and based on those assumptions a happy dream matters quite a bit, even if I don't remember it. My alarm woke me from an awful dream this morning, and I hope I don't have any similar dreams tonight - regardless of whether I remember them.

[benjdm]

[ QUOTE ]
This is why many atheists wish that there was a God. Unless you are fooling yourself, how do atheists find meaning/happiness in life?

~MagicMan

[/ QUOTE ]
I do wish there was an afterlife. As far as wishing a god did or didn't exist, I'm pretty neutral. As far as the harsh tone: I've probably been debating too long where the getting told I'm a) completely immoral b) have a meaningless existence c) a fool who is vile and does no good. If you think about it, a) and b) are completely independent of reality being theistic or atheistic, only most theists haven't realized it yet. They are both typical "My idea of creating / meaning / morality must have an external creator / source / source, which leads me to infinite regress, therefore God."

[Magic_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is why many atheists wish that there was a God. Unless you are fooling yourself, how do atheists find meaning/happiness in life?

~MagicMan

[/ QUOTE ]
I do wish there was an afterlife. As far as wishing a god did or didn't exist, I'm pretty neutral. As far as the harsh tone: I've probably been debating too long where the getting told I'm a) completely immoral b) have a meaningless existence c) a fool who is vile and does no good. If you think about it, a) and b) are completely independent of reality being theistic or atheistic, only most theists haven't realized it yet. They are both typical "My idea of creating / meaning / morality must have an external creator / source / source, which leads me to infinite regress, therefore God."

[/ QUOTE ]

Being somewhere in the atheist camp myself, I agree for the most part. The arguments about us being immoral are completely false, of course, and upon further reflection, OP's post was fairly aggressive. But what I'm talking about is memory. I wish desperately that there was an afterlife, because with no afterlife, I am gone completely when I die. An earlier poster said that he hopes he doesn't have a nightmare tonight, even if he doesn't remember it. This is illogical to me; if I won't remember it, I don't care what I dream about tonight. It doesn't matter if I'm dreaming about my greatest fears or a thousand beautiful women - when I wake up, it will all be over. How can I seek happiness in life when it won't matter in the end?

[benjdm]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish desperately that there was an afterlife, because with no afterlife, I am gone completely when I die.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree wholeheartedly.

[ QUOTE ]
How can I seek happiness in life when it won't matter in the end?

[/ QUOTE ]
Won't matter to whom ?

While I'm alive, it matters to me. It isn't of cosmic importance, it's finite, it's temporary, but it is all that anyone has, in my opinion. I'd much rather live forever or at least live as long as I wished to, but I'm not making that decision. I'm definitely not seeing the reality of a short life as an argument to make it shorter like the OP said, though. It is what it is.

[FortunaMaximus]

It'll matter to the maid who has to clean up, whether it's matter on the walls or you've soiled your pants.