Floor call - twice this happened tonight.....

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Are you allowed to table you cards face up when facing a decision to call?

i.e. say you are heads up and someone pushes on the river, can you turn your cards face up and then decide what to do? Or is this against the rules?

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Most places this is perfectly within the rules. Most people are learning this move from Super System where Doyle actually describes when and how he would use this move in a cash game to get information.

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I used this move exactly 1 time ever and here's the quick story to go with it:

Facing a good sized river bet (forget the NL game size) but iw as about half of my stack at the time, I thought the other player may have caught his flush or straight (forget the exact hand again). Anyways I flipped my cards up while my right hand was on my chips. I did not move them forward. I was playing with them as we all do. He started to turn his cards up with a smile. He was stopped by myself first and then the dealer as I did not want to take that kind of shot at him. I then got the info I wanted as he was very eager to turn those cards up and collect the pot. I believe I had flopped a set at the time. The player confirmed my read and flipped them up anyways.

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Most people haven't read Super System (I have it but it's been so long since I read Doyle's section I forgot this move was in there) and many opponents will react as your opponent did. Although you tried to be honorable (by not including forward motion), you clearly took advantage of the typical player's reaction i.e., he thought you have folded or were on your way to folding and gave away his hand.

You only did it once, which makes me wonder if you also felt the move is a bit on the shady side, one that is not worth repeating despite being such a strong "tell inducer".

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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As for any exposing of cards always having forward motion that is bS. First cards could be exposed by being flipped left to right. Second I often see players expose their cards and not release them at all.hey keep their fingers on them so that there is no confusion as to whether they are folding or not (there still may be confusion as to if they called)

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I know this wasn't written in response to my two posts so far (written after you posted this), but I want to make it clear that I don't always see "a little bit of forward motion".

I'm in favor of allowing a reasonable degree of gamesmanship in poker; that helps make it fun. But I'm also in favor of protecting the newcomers and the unwary, and this practice tends to rate high on the former and very low on the latter.

That said, if the cards are turned over sideways without forward motion and protected with a finger (perhaps with calling time as the OP noted in a later post), perhaps the rules can be written and information on the practice spread in such a way that the new and inexperienced players are protected within reason.

~ Rick

[RR]

The rules should not be changed to kill a hand for turning it up. It is pretty common for a player to become ocnfused and not realized he was raised or whatever and to turn their hand up to make a claim for the pot thinking they have reached the showdown. I have no problem with asking someone to leave if they make a habit of doing this to get people to show their cards.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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The rules should not be changed to kill a hand for turning it up. It is pretty common for a player to become ocnfused and not realized he was raised or whatever and to turn their hand up to make a claim for the pot thinking they have reached the showdown. I have no problem with asking someone to leave if they make a habit of doing this to get people to show their cards.

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Agreed.

Do you think there is a way to reword the rules so that an innocent mistake is not unfairly punished and the practiced described in the OP is curbed (or made clear that he is not folding0? Let's assume that the typical floorman in the present/future won't have your experience and judgement and will need simple and concrete guidelines.

I'll be leaving for the day soon so I may not get back till later.

~ Rick

[RR]

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The rules should not be changed to kill a hand for turning it up. It is pretty common for a player to become ocnfused and not realized he was raised or whatever and to turn their hand up to make a claim for the pot thinking they have reached the showdown. I have no problem with asking someone to leave if they make a habit of doing this to get people to show their cards.

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Agreed.

Do you think there is a way to reword the rules so that an innocent mistake is not unfairly punished and the practiced described in the OP is curbed (or made clear that he is not folding0? Let's assume that the typical floorman in the present/future won't have your experience and judgement and will need simple and concrete guidelines.

I'll be leaving for the day soon so I may not get back till later.

~ Rick

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I am not convinced this practice should be permitted, but if it was outlawed it should be treated as any other etiquette in that if players refuse to conduct themselves as ladies and gentlemen they can be asked to leave (I consider removing a palyer form the club a much less serious penalty than killing their hand as killing their hand can be viewed as taking money that is rightfully theirs). If you want to allow the gamemenship of showing your hand the best route is to educate players about not showing their hands until the dealer asks them to (and even then they need to protect themselves and make sure the dealer is not mistaken).