My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage

[aeakos]

Any suggestions on starting hand requirements for these 6max games?

[Los Feliz Slim]

Thank you.

[ihardlyknowher]

Even though you already have enough lipstick on your butt, I need to say thank you too. This summarizes everything I am doing wrong right now. But the good news is, I am winning anyway. Thanks for getting me one step closer to quitting my day job.

[DBowling]

[ QUOTE ]
Are these not contradictory?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im pretty sure hes talking about position plays. Out of position, induce a bluff by checking. In position, when checked to, value bet and hope that he hit a pair with one of his drawing cards or he's been chasing you down with 2nd pair the entire way.

[TheWorstPlayer]

In many circumstances when you are OOP you should still value bet. Mostly depends on how likely it is that he is on a draw. Many players will call down with top pair crap kicker and you are missing value if you are letting them check behind on the river.

[fimbulwinter]

The amount to bet is mostly player and table image dependant.

FWIW, without reads etc. my standard is 1/2 to 3/4 pot, depending on pot size (with larger pots getting porportionally smaller bets).

fim

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
" Not value betting the river. this i bad, especially when in position against an opponent who is very unlikely to be drawing. this (VERY) often happens on J and T high boards where it's almost given that someone has hit with KT or AJ and the other guy hit his connector. Players always seem to dog this; remember that river value bets are the best money in holdem, because the loser is always drawing dead. Don't leave this money on the table.

2. Not allowing a probable drawer to bluff the river. very often when the flop comes Ace etc. people will call to the river to try and spike their flush. sometimes they have as little as $5 left by the river and only a busted draw to show for it. most players holding a strong ace at 25NL will shove it in and inevitably fold out the drawer; if you're out of position check it to him and let him try a desperation bluff; you want him to pay his whole stack for his draw, not just most of it.
"

Are these not contradictory?

[/ QUOTE ]

just reread the post and realized how terribly i put all of this. what i was discussing is playing with position on a (nearly) drawless board versus playing out of position on a draw heavy board, both with top pair kind of hands.

the real overlying message is this: make a read and go with it. don't bet because you have a hand, bet because of what you think he has. if you've got quads, don't shove it in on the river if you think he missed his draw cos you're bulletproof, let him bluff. conversely, if you've got a very marginal hand like KJ on a drawless board, you need to realize that most players will raise AJ and so all the other J's are paying you, so whn he checks to you, put a value bet out there as your holding, though very shaky, is probably best >80% of the time.

One relevant anecdote: A while back i showed a friend who was (is) a struggling actor how to beat the 25NL games on party and one thing that shocked me was his innate ability to read hands. i spent a day making him verbalize his reads ("he's probably got diamonds because he didn't raise and called very quickly" etc.) and then making him think about what he needs to do to play well against those kinds of hands. he made 6 buyins that day, and promptly lost most of them playing home alone that night. point is that this guy is not half as smart as the average 2+2er and he could read hands great if he thought about it a little, far too often i see players betting hands because they have them (I have to bet this marginal overpair in a multiway raised pot...) and this will get you a small profit, simply because you play better starters and therefore will, in general have a better hand, but if you want to make real money, your bets should be made to induce mistakes in the most likely hand the villain could hold.

fim

[FUpaymee]

Excellent post. I have converted to a $25 NL player from an SnG player recently...I have found it to be much more profitable, and there are SO many fish. Last night I feasted on this one guy...he kept busting out with terrible hands to me, and then just kept reloading. I think I took all his money 4 times...had a very good night. +280 for the night. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Granted I had some amazing hands.

I also haven't noticed much difference between the play at the $50 and $25 tables either.

As for the value bet on the river...this is very key. I have saved so much money with these bets lately. Everything else on your post is right on as well. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[lemondropmmm]

Dude. Make your clarifications and submit this to the 2+2 magazine. And get another +$200 EV!!!

The Lemon

[fimbulwinter]

Been wanting to do this one for a while.

CAVEAT: THIS WORKS FOR ME, IT MAY NOT FOR YOU. THIS ASSUMES YOU'RE EXPERIENCED ENOUGH TO PLAY A POSSIBLY DOMINATED SUITED/CONNECTED/PAIRED HAND AND THAT YOU KNOW THE 5/10 RULE AND APPLY IT.

If you're just starting out, play tight. that said, here's about how I played at 25NL, but i did also make some fancypants moves that were habit from the prima games that i won't list here. If i'd have played more like this, i'd probably have done better. also 6max ONLY. pull this full ring and you deserve to lose.

Definitions:

Offsuit Hands:
M: monsters AA,KK
BPP: big pairs QQ,JJ,TT
MPP: medium pairs 99,88,77
SPP: small pairs 66 to 22
BOB: big offsuit broadway AK, AQ
OBC: offsuit broadway connectors KQ, JQ, JT
OBSC: offsuit broadway semiconnectors KJ, QT
OBT: offsuit broadway trash AJ, AT, KT
OC: offsuit connectors 9T to 45
OSC: offsuit semiconnectors J9 to 46
LOT: little offsuit trash 69, 35, 24, 23 etc.

"Sooted" gets an "S" instead of an "O" so QTs is a SBSC etc.

SA: sooooooted aces
SK: sooooooted kings
SCT: sooooooted complete trash (J2s...)
SBB:
SBC:
SBSC:
SBT:
SC:
SSC:
LST:

Actions:
RRP: raise, reraise, push
RRF: raise, reraise, fold to push. use your brain here WRT stack sizes.
RC: raise or call a raise, fold to massive heat, except monsters
RF: raise or fold to a raise or reraise
CR: call and raise (limp/reraise)
CC: call and call a raise
CF: call and fold to a raise
F: fold

Positions:
SB: Small Blind
BB: Big blind
LP: Button and CO
EP: UTG, UTG+1


Ok, here we go:

Shallow game, first in

SB (or blind battle in general ie SB completes and you're on BB):
M: CC
BPP: RRP
MPP: RC
SPP: CC
BOB: RRP
OBC: RF
OBSC: RF
OBT: RF
OC: CC
OSC: CC
LOT: F
SA: RF
SK: RF
SCT: CF
SBB: RRP
SBC: RC
SBSC: RC
SBT: RF
SC: RC
SSC: CC
LST: CF

BB:
fold everything [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

LP:
M: RRP
BPP: RC
MPP: RC
SPP: RC
BOB: RC
OBC: RF
OBSC: RF
OBT: RF
OC: RC
OSC: RC
LOT: F
SA: RF
SK: RF
SCT: F
SBB: RC
SBC: RC
SBSC: RC
SBT: RF
SC: RC
SSC: RC
LST: FF

EP:
M: RRP
BPP: RRC
MPP: CC
SPP: CC
BOB: RF
OBC: CF
OBSC: F
OBT: F
OC: F
OSC: F
LOT: F
SA: F
SK: F
SCT: F
SBB: RF
SBC: RF
SBSC: F
SBT: F
SC: RC or F
SSC: RC or F
LST: F





Shallow game, with limper(s)

SB:
M: RRP
BPP: RC
MPP: CC
SPP: CC
BOB: RC or CC
OBC: CF
OBSC: CF
OBT: CF
OC: CF
OSC: CF
LOT: F
SA: CF
SK: CF
SCT: CF
SBB: RC or CC
SBC: CF
SBSC: CF
SBT: CF
SC: CF
SSC: CF
LST: CF

BB:
M: RRP
BPP: RC
MPP: CC
SPP: CC
BOB: RC
OBC: CF
OBSC: CF
OBT: CF
OC: CF
OSC: CF
LOT: CF
SA: CF
SK: CF
SCT: CF
SBB: RC
SBC: CF
SBSC: CF
SBT: CF
SC: CF
SSC: CF
LST: CF

LP:
M: RC
BPP: RRF
MPP: RC
SPP: CC
BOB: RC
OBC: RF
OBSC: RF
OBT: RF
OC: CF
OSC: CF
LOT: CF
SA: CF
SK: CF
SCT: CF
SBB: RC
SBC: RC
SBSC: RC
SBT: CF
SC: CC
SSC: CC
LST: CF

EP: same as without limpers





readme:
this is a rough sketch, but even this isn't a good guideline if you treat it robotically. also, i can't stress this enough, that you need to think about the table texture here. no point raising 89s on the button if people will call with JQ and KT and A9. conversely, there's no reason to reraise a maniac who raises your blind when you hold AA/KK. Use this as a suggestion, not as rules.

fim