The Deranged Finger Chopper

[Cue-Ball 66]

Discussed with a friend a similar issue. That is, hindering someone else slightly to greatly benefit yourself (which is what the finger chopper in this case is doing). Would you steal $500 from someone, if it gave you $5 million? I think most everyone would.

But where do you draw the line? Steal $500 for $2,000? Because at some point you're just a common theif.

[Cue-Ball 66]

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A better question might be: Will those who claim to be utilitarians willingly give up their fingers in this situation? I probably would, actually, but the reality is that 99.9% of people would not which illustrates that "total happiness" is much less important to people, psychologically, than self-interest. Most human altruism has a reciprocal basis, and cases like these that are "anti-reciprocal" typically don't encourage altruism.

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You probably would, but surely you would draw the line somewhere? Your penis for example...?

[FortunaMaximus]

Yeah, consensual agreement is probably the best solution in this regard, as it is for most extreme stuff.

I mean, if it's done voluntarily, whatever gets your rocks off.

All I'm saying: If there's a buyer, there's a seller, let the transaction fly.

Otherwise it's a violation of individual rights. You'd assume people should get to keep their fingers if they want to, and to sell them if they like.

I don't know. Quadriplegics might fill the market need for that fetish.

I'll stick to my rather tame fetishes though, if you don't mind. I'm sure women in form-fitting leather pants would have gotten burnt at the stake not too long ago.

[madnak]

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You probably would, but surely you would draw the line somewhere? Your penis for example...?

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Hard to say. Probably so. I don't mean to have kids, and this desire for sex is more trouble than it's worth.

Where I draw the line will be arbitrary. It won't be rational in any way. I mean, we're assuming an arbitrarily high level of happiness here, so to "draw the line" is to value something categorically above happiness. And I don't value anything like that. So the place I draw the line can't be determined rationally for me.

Unless I play tricks and say "you can't take my penis, because my children will contribute so much to humanity that over the course of the future they'll create an infinite amount of happiness!"

[PokerNeophyte]

why would volunteering matter to the utilitarian? shouldn't you be ok with the outcome, ex post, if the guy just came up to you and chopped your finger off without getting permission?

[FortunaMaximus]

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why would volunteering matter to the utilitarian? shouldn't you be ok with the outcome, ex post, if the guy just came up to you and chopped your finger off without getting permission?

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Heh. There you go, Cue. Find an utilitarian and see if he minds.

[cpk]

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A utilitarian would say yes, unless you argue that living in a society where it was allowable for someone to remove your finger would be a huge negative for everyone.

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I thought utilitarians--at least JSM-type utilitarians--were about most happiness for the greatest number of people, not greatest overall happiness....