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#11
10-08-2006, 03:43 PM
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Re: A debate about Israel and the U.S. in New York City
[ QUOTE ]
Also, how about Canis's comment: [/ QUOTE ] Canis' comments would be anti-semitic and anti-zionist [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I also find it interesting that he states... [ QUOTE ] it is what derails any chance to have a meaningful discussion about the real issues. [/ QUOTE ] ... and then proceeds to derail meaningful discussion with his own comments... sigh! 
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#12
10-08-2006, 03:45 PM
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Re: A debate about Israel and the U.S. in New York City
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Also, how about Canis's comment: [/ QUOTE ] Canis' comments would be anti-semitic and anti-zionist [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I find some comfort in the fact that I've never met an intelligent anti-semite, they always seem to be the raving loony idiots of any group.
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#13
10-08-2006, 07:01 PM
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Re: A debate about Israel and the U.S. in New York City
There was an interesting follow-up series of letters to the initial article in both the London Review of Books and the NY Review of Books, which ran a parallel article on the reaction to the initial article. Also, the LRB article was an abbreviated version of a paper available at the Kennedy School Website. The greatest accomplishment of the authors was smoking out the goon squad responsible for the criticism-of-Israel equals anti-Semitism nonsense. No one was more willing to unwittingly prove their point than that most reliable of scoundrels, Alan Dershowitz.
The whole problem with this discussion is that it's obviously off-center, in that it concentrates on a peripheral issue and constituency. It's similar to the short debates over whether democratizing the ME "fights terror." Of course it doesn't which is why no one with power in the U.S. really wants it. Similarly, the Israel lobby has no structure of power that compels the multinational corporations and financial institutions and their many owners and minions to sit by and watch hundreds of billions of taxes being pissed away just to help Israel. In both cases, you quickly run into a couple of blatant contradictions like these and that's the end of real discussion. Of course Israel and its supporters wanted the U.S. to take out Saddam and supplied the loudest chorus of cheeleaders. It hardly suggests that U.S. policy would be the same if Iraq's biggest resource was date palms.
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#14
10-08-2006, 07:18 PM
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Re: A debate about Israel and the U.S. in New York City
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"Am I anti-semitic for believing that Western Civilisation had few positives until we started purging Hebrew mythology from our lives during the Enlightenment." [/ QUOTE ] It sure sounds like it, especially if you mean to exculpate early modern Christianity. Surely you don't mean to suggest that the Reformations led straight to the Enlightenment? If so, consider how Descarte's experience in the 30 Years' War could have led him to an idea or two whose trajectory would give considerable grief to the progeny of pious early moderns. Here's the thing: every ideology is fairly subject to forceful criticism, but when the ideology also forms the core of how a large group identifies itself, you have to take pains to prove that you're after the ideas and not the people. If you aren't willing to do this, you don't have much to complain about.
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#15
10-09-2006, 09:47 AM
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Re: A debate about Israel and the U.S. in New York City
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See, I was going to say this as well, but I'd just be scolded by Cyrus/Mickey Brausch for "not knowing the difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism." [/ QUOTE ] It isn't really that difficult to understand. Anti-Zionism consists of attacking the state of Israel in terms of its actions, founding ideology and so on. The poster attacked Judaism itself, and didn't mention anything to do with Israel, so I don't think anyone is going to claim he was merely being anti-Zionist. However his attack and various responses raises an interesting question. Is it anti-semitic to attack the of religion Judaism, that is Jewish beleifs? That is what the OP seemed to be doing, albeit in a bone-headed way. Anti-semitism usually implies racist or sectarian attacks on Jews as people (or as a race or ethnicity) rather than on their religious beliefs (whether or not one was a believing Jew, or even a converted one, was of no interest to Hitler for example). It is commonplace on this forum to attack Islam as a religion, and to a lesser extent Christianity. Should similar attacks on beliefs associated with Judaism as a religion be distinguished from anti-semitic racism?
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#16
10-09-2006, 10:01 AM
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Re: A debate about Israel and the U.S. in New York City
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It is commonplace on this forum to attack Islam as a religion, and to a lesser extent Christianity. Should similar attacks on beliefs associated with Judaism as a religion be distinguished from anti-semitic racism? [/ QUOTE ] I see absolutely nothing wrong with challenges of beliefs of religon including Judaism. Why would it be?
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#17
10-09-2006, 01:01 PM
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Re: A debate about Israel and the U.S. in New York City
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It is commonplace on this forum to attack Islam as a religion, and to a lesser extent Christianity. Should similar attacks on beliefs associated with Judaism as a religion be distinguished from anti-semitic racism? [/ QUOTE ] I see absolutely nothing wrong with challenges of beliefs of religon including Judaism. Why would it be? [/ QUOTE ] Logically I see nothing wrong with this either but I feel that a lot of people would all the same label it anti-semitism.
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