Freedom in spite of government - Page 2

cpk · #11 10-04-2006, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What you are both missing is that a strong government provides a military to defend the market and protect capital from foriegn looters. The same was true in Athens and Rome as it is in the USA. Both of them had relatively free markets like us protected by a strong military like ours. The thing that the market does not provide which a government does is a military. In our case, the government has found a way to encourage the market to come up with a better and better military by diverting significant tax revenue into awarding military contracts. If someone manages to accumulate enough wealth in a free market situation where there is no government, typically they will divert some of that wealth to protecting the rest of the wealth. In that case, they typically become the government as others seek to align themselves with that protection. You cannot keep or own what you cannot defend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you should mention the military. The impetus of semiconductor research was the war effort during WWII, and the early Internet was basically a Defense Department project.

hmkpoker · #12 10-04-2006, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can't claim on the one hand that the free market provides all that is good about our society and then turn around and claim that the free market doesn't even exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I'm claiming. The market elements in our society is the source of prosperity and freedom, while the government elements restrict them. I claim that we don't have a free market, because that would suggest that the government elements do not exist.

[ QUOTE ]
And government is fundamental to the existence of the corporation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The government creates the need for the corporation. If businesspeople didn't get taxed in the first place, what good would a corporation be, except to protect unscrupulous businessmen from liability and fraud? Should we praise mafiosos for offering us protection from themselves?

[ QUOTE ]

OK, fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not, I drink Kool-Aid. The mind-altering drugs dissolve faster that way.

hmkpoker · #13 10-04-2006, 09:47 PM

Don't forget the post office! If the government didn't make it illegal to engage in the practice of delivering ordinary mail and set up an inefficient monopoly, how would we ever get our mail delivered?

bobman0330 · #14 10-04-2006, 10:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The government creates the need for the corporation. If businesspeople didn't get taxed in the first place, what good would a corporation be, except to protect unscrupulous businessmen from liability and fraud? Should we praise mafiosos for offering us protection from themselves?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? Limited liability is a nearly inescapable prerequisite to passive investment, capital markets, and modern business as we know it.

hmkpoker · #15 10-04-2006, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
passive investment

[/ QUOTE ]

Because god forbid people actually have to think about the business they're putting their life savings into.

Exsubmariner · #16 10-04-2006, 11:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing that the market does not provide which a government does is a military.

[/ QUOTE ]

Demonstrate logically why a market would not provide militaries for property protection against invaders.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when you are facing a horde of Mongols who ride out nowhere from a desert which is thought to be uncrossable, it is really hard to get your [censored] together in time to defend yourself. This happened across Asian circa 1250 to many free market economies located in the Caliphates of the day. You should read history more.

Exsubmariner · #17 10-04-2006, 11:10 PM

Yes, this is true. Despite popular belief, Al Gore did not invent the internet.

Exsubmariner · #18 10-04-2006, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget the post office! If the government didn't make it illegal to engage in the practice of delivering ordinary mail and set up an inefficient monopoly, how would we ever get our mail delivered?

[/ QUOTE ]

Post office DOES NOT EQUAL military. Apples vs. Oranges.

A little less obfuscation and a little more addressing of my actual arguement would be nice. I thought you were supposed to be smart.

pvn · #19 10-04-2006, 11:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"It's property law, stupid."

I happen to agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

[ QUOTE ]
But as you note, and De Soto agrees, natural property systems typically don't fare nearly as well as the artificial ones created by states, i.e., in colloquial terms: places without states really do suck at capitalsm, and obviously, it's not because the state interferes in these areas.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in empirical terms, the places where "natural property systems" exist in the present day are the places where "respect for the rule of law" was *so low* that the states that were there outright failed. You claim you want empirical data, and you claim that you agree with the idea that lack of respect for rule of law makes a successful economy difficult, and you note that places that currently exist without states "suck at capitalism".

Connect the dots.

pvn · #20 10-04-2006, 11:41 PM

(low-content shameless cheerleading post (I believe I get a ration of one of these per month))

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

OK, fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not, I drink Kool-Aid. The mind-altering drugs dissolve faster that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget the post office! If the government didn't make it illegal to engage in the practice of delivering ordinary mail and set up an inefficient monopoly, how would we ever get our mail delivered?

[/ QUOTE ]

SHIP IT HOLLAMENTS