HU NL vs Limit: Which is the best test of skill?

[jay_shark]

If you were playing Phil Ivey , winning 40 % of the time using this strategy is certainly not bad .

Keep playing devils advocate .

[omgwtfnoway]

why on earth would i ever play phil ivey? this discussion is pointless because you should NEVER enter into a match knowing you can only hope to win 40% of the time.

another thing: limit betting structures kept hold'em poker alive before the current boom because they allow poor players to win more frequently than no limit structures.
therefore, limit structures must limit a better player's ability to exploit a poor player. just something to think about.

[jay_shark]

Let me repeat this again .

I already stated that there is more skill involved in nl compared to limit . I also have plenty of experience playing both games and from my understanding of the two , nl sng's is more of a crapshoot .

It's unfortunate there aren't any heads up cash game tables .

[passthesuga]

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I also have plenty of experience playing both games and from my understanding of the two , nl sng's is more of a crapshoot

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I have been playing HUNL sng's for a living for some time now. Limit is far more of a crapshoot, because a good NL player can avoid situations where their stack is at risk unless they have a significant edge. That is, when they commit a significant number of chips to a hand, they are almost always gettng the best of it.

They can also utilise pot control as both an agressive and defensive tool in order to take advantage of their strong holdings, and decrease chips spent on weak hands and draws. Anyone (a great player or a break even player) can hit BET with top pair in limit or CALL with a good draw and pot/implied odds. Facing the same decisions in no limit against overbets/pot sized bets and against different types of opponents is a far more difficult art to master. The mistakes made by those who have not mastered the game will cost them significantly, not just a couple of BB's. These significant mistakes reduce the "crapshoot" element in no limit to a degree that is simply not possible in limit.

In NL the cards do not matter as much as the opponent. In limit the cards have a far greater effect on who wins the SNG. In limit you can get dealt cr-p for 20 hands putting you at a significant disadvantage. This is not necessarily so in NL. It is far more difficult to take an opponent off a pair in HU limit than in HU no limit, because the cost of calling in limit is so much cheaper.

In no limit, because implied odds are inherently larger and bluffing plays a far greater role, you can offset the cards with intelligent play.

Take a great player in both formats, a top pro. Let's take Phil Ivey or John D'Agostino. I can pretty much guarantee that at any given level, they would have a higher win rate AND higher hourly rate at NL than at LIMIT for HUSNG's, because NL is a game of skill and people. Limit is skillful too, but in the short run of a HUSNG, the cards have a far greater effect on the outcome and would reduce their winrate, as basically their tools to overcome the effect of the cards are reduced in limit.

[passthesuga]

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basically because NL often turns into two players all-in with good hands and the best hand is somewhat random.

I respectfully disagree

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I agree with you OP, in most cases. When the stacks are deep and the levels increase slowly, it can take around an hour for before this push fest becomes correct strategy. Look at certain sites NL HUSNG setup, it rarely (if ever) comes to this until

a) someone is a shortstack or
b) you are an hour into the SNG

At for example Party on the other hand, the stacks are shallow and blinds increase rapidly, so luck plays a far greater roll (I don't play at Party because of this and the 10% rake).

In an interesting post by Nichomancheo currently running he talks about folding AKs after he reraises (or about not reraising in the first place). Due to the size of his raise in the post he talks about, and the pot odds, and his opponents tendencies, a call is madatory.

However during the early levels, against many weaker opponents, it may be correct to give up some marginal +EV and fold some hands to all in reraises in order to wait for a bettter spot (this depends on your opponents strength and likely range)(In Nicos exaple as the reraiser, he had bloated the pot to a degree where a call became mandatory. FWIW, I like your play here aginst that type of opponent Nico).

The point is though, that if you are choosing your SNG site and setup correctly, in my experience, it is certainly nothing like Matt Matros describes.

P.S. I have not read Matts work only what you have siad of it

Regards
Jules

[irishcurve08]

Limit is a much harder game to master than hu no limit. I play both from 10-25 nl to 50-100 nl and up to 300-600 limit and sometime 500-1000 on ft.....the fact is limit is a finess (sp) game you need to get in every bet at the right time. you have to know when to value bet a high on the river etc. Something that isnt often done in no limit. No limit there are a lot more river checks from top pair etc. No limit against the right opponant who raise fire fops you can just wiat for your sets and what not in limit it isnt that easy because you get less value out of your big hands.

[rcs1537]

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Limit is a much harder game to master than hu no limit. I play both from 10-25 nl to 50-100 nl and up to 300-600 limit and sometime 500-1000 on ft.....the fact is limit is a finess (sp) game you need to get in every bet at the right time. you have to know when to value bet a high on the river etc. Something that isnt often done in no limit. No limit there are a lot more river checks from top pair etc. No limit against the right opponant who raise fire fops you can just wiat for your sets and what not in limit it isnt that easy because you get less value out of your big hands.

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I agree...

In no limit, anyone can get lucky and take you out in one single hand. Does that mean he's better than you? hell no.

However, in limit no one can take the other out in one hand. You have to PROVE you are better than that person by grinding out a victory, utilizing your superior skills over the course of the game.

[StregaChess]

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The casinos make their living off of winning close edges . I'd certainly wouldn't want to be the guy pushing all in everytime , but nevertheless it's still interesting to know that this strategy will still win it's fair share of the time .

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Yes of course, but to a non-poker player layperson sort of thing it would be a great bar bet.

[rico4]

try pot limit. Get a lot more showdowns and more play. Its not as difficult as NL, but requires some skill as well

[almostbusto]

[ QUOTE ]
try pot limit. Get a lot more showdowns and more play. Its not as difficult as NL, but requires some skill as well

[/ QUOTE ]pot limit is way more difficult than NL