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#12
09-26-2006, 02:18 AM
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Re: AK
i think using odds to determine a river call holding 1 pair hands is a terrible way to play
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#13
09-26-2006, 02:19 AM
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Re: AK
[ QUOTE ]
I question folding the river getting 3:1 on my money. I would certainly expect to see AJ or JJ from the villain here, but there just aren't enough ways to have those two hands to make me lay down for only $65 in a $200 pot. Especially if your image is LAG like you say. Of course, if your image is LAG I think your flop/turn reasoning is incorrect. [/ QUOTE ] Its time to get paid if you have lag image...
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#14
09-26-2006, 02:28 AM
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Re: AK
[ QUOTE ]
i think using odds to determine a river call holding 1 pair hands is a terrible way to play [/ QUOTE ] Lol. Friendly. I guess YMMV, but this call is definitely not terrible, though I'm willing to consider it may be a loser. The rebuttal has been pretty unconvincing though. I've seen this kind of switched over from limit delayed betting against a LAG player quite a bit. If I was playing straightforward TAG I think this would be a straightforward <edit>fold</edit>. As a LAG, I would not be surprised by AK, AQ or several PP's. How do you not use odds when determining any non-nut river call, btw? "Feel"? I call that odds without actually picking a number. edit: as marked, oops
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#15
09-26-2006, 02:53 AM
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Re: AK
.... friendly? could eb wrong but it seems to me your basically calling me a [censored] for disagreeing with your advice.
i wasnt referring to this particular hand when i say using odds to determine river calls with 1 pair hands is bad. using odds is defensible when your hand is strong and beat some of his range for raising, but when all u beat is a bluff i dont think u can determine his bluffing frequency accuratly enough to make an odds based call. now this particular hand. look at it from the tags point of view. aj a9 ak all beat him if he has aq, hes only ahead of at. the fact that hes against a lag argues strongly for a bet on the turn if he holds ak because if your not betting yoru made hands you pretty much destroy any chance u have of floating. the only ax hands it makes sense to check behind here are aj aq and at and i highly doubt he raises at or aq on this river. also i think 99 is more likely here than jj. if your going to call here with jj v a lag u HAVE to bet the turn.
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#17
09-26-2006, 04:14 AM
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Re: AK
Against a TAG I kinda like c/c the river. He almost never calls a river bet with worse than AK here IMO unless he has exactly AQ, and I don't think AQ checks the turn. Let him bluff the times he has something like KQ or value bet his worse aces.
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#19
09-26-2006, 06:42 AM
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Re: AK
"I checked the turn bc villian won't call with worse than A on the turn "
Yes he will. Betting out on the turn will confuse him. I don't think AQ or AJ fold to a turn bet.
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#20
09-26-2006, 08:42 AM
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Re: AK
[ QUOTE ]
.... friendly? could eb wrong but it seems to me your basically calling me a [censored] for disagreeing with your advice. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think I've used derogatory terms to comment on you or your advice. I'm just trying to discuss a hand. I do, however, think your tone has been aggressive and not particularly conducive to constructive discussion. If you're so sure you're right, why not explain like you're starting to now from the beginning? [ QUOTE ] i wasnt referring to this particular hand when i say using odds to determine river calls with 1 pair hands is bad. using odds is defensible when your hand is strong and beat some of his range for raising, but when all u beat is a bluff i dont think u can determine his bluffing frequency accuratly enough to make an odds based call. [/ QUOTE ] So if we check and he bets $10 as a bluff? I can't believe you just use arbitrary rules to make your decisions on the river. "I fold to a raise on the river holding one pair". I think what you're trying to say is that 3:1 isn't good enough for you. It would be more helpful, IMO, if you offered your opinion on what odds you require in this spot. Do you think there is a 10% chance you're good here? I think there's a 20-25% chance as a LAG without a read, hence my inclination to look this player up until I know him or her better. This has worked well for me over a lot of hands, but I could be wrong. So we'll hypothesize you're right and I'm wrong, I just lost what, $10 by calling? I think the pot odds are much better than words like "terrible" would lead a casual reader to understand. [ QUOTE ] now this particular hand. look at it from the tags point of view. aj a9 ak all beat him if he has aq, hes only ahead of at. the fact that hes against a lag argues strongly for a bet on the turn if he holds ak because if your not betting yoru made hands you pretty much destroy any chance u have of floating. the only ax hands it makes sense to check behind here are aj aq and at and i highly doubt he raises at or aq on this river. [/ QUOTE ] But I don't think you're looking at our opponent's decision-making accurately. He sees a loose and aggressive player check and call on the flop. Check the turn. And then make a kind of big bet on the river. I don't think it's a stretch for him to pop it some kind of semi-weak amount figuring we don't really have much. The sizing of the bet might be value sized against what he considers a good player, but against a laggy player? He's going to bet more with a monster in here somewhere and figure to get paid off by the loose player. I think, getting back to earlier posts, this situation would be a lot different and we could have a much clearer decision if we'd actually taken better advantage of our image by aggressively betting this hand on earlier streets. [ QUOTE ] Also i think 99 is more likely here than jj. if your going to call here with jj v a lag u HAVE to bet the turn. [/ QUOTE ] I think 99 is a somewhat likely holding also. I've seen a lot of overly large pre-flop openers with hands like 77-TT where the player is simply afraid to see a flop.
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