1k - take me to valuetown

[BluffTHIS!]

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the turn is sort of annoying because i hate letting only that small bet go in but whenever i raise that they either fold or do something wierd like minreraise or shove.

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The problem with just calling that small bet on the turn is that you are letting villain control the pot size and somewhat negate hero's power of position, and at the same time be able to get an accurate read on hero's hand by hero's action. When hero just calls he telegraphs his hand as TPTK or maybe an overpair being played scared. Then even though villain checked the river, he could have used that knowledge to setup a big tough decision for hero in the form of a full pot bet or an overbet. And if he's doing that with the right frequency of hands that beat hero to bluff plus worse made hands, then hero can only break even by calling *if* he only calls with the correct frequency, and will lose long term if he calls more. Now that takes a real good and tricky villain to do that, which probably isn't the case here. But hero should more often tend to raise the turn to see where he is at and stop that river play, and in the case of being called would be more right to check behind on the river or fold to a large river bet.

So in summary, hero smoothcalling that smaller turn bet defines his hand to the villain as one pair most likely not an overpair, and fails to charge villain to improve a similar one pair hand currently beat, while setting himself up for a tough river decision by a very good player.

[flawless_victory]

if our hand was actually that defined and he actually bluffed w/ the correct frequency it wouldnt matter how often we called.

[invisibleleadsoup]

i think this is fine until the river when you have to bet,and i'd probably make quite a strong bet so that it looks more like a bluff and less like a value bet

[BluffTHIS!]

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if our hand was actually that defined and he actually bluffed w/ the correct frequency it wouldnt matter how often we called.

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fv,

You have just shown yourself to be a total imbecile with that statement.

[invisibleleadsoup]

bluffTHIS! i see what you're saying about villains frequencies and the fact that calling the turn sort of surrenders control of the hand and makes it easier for villain to put you on a hand,however i would have thought that these factors would be far less important than the fact that there's not really much value in raising the turn,i mean i don't think he'll call down with a worse J,and i think our hand still can extract some value from his by calling the turn and then betting for value/maybe calling his bet on the river..

if this isn't the case (and it may not be,i'm still learning) then why isn't it?

[invisibleleadsoup]

and if the factors that you mention are very important,why not raise the turn when you have nothing or very little in this situation rather than a quite strong hand with showdown value?

if he calls in either case (when we have TPTK or nothing at all) we're sunk so we may as well keep him on his toes when we have nothing rather than something,or so it would seem to me...

[BluffTHIS!]

By raising as I suggested you do get value when he calls the raise and you avoid letting him take a 1 pair hand and outrun you on the cheap, and keep him from using an accurate read to setup a big river steal play. And his reaction to the raise if he calls or reraises will give a more accurate read on his hand *most* times. The times it won't are when he is tricky enough to both smoothcall with a set and then lead out with same on the river as well as a certain percentage of the time worse hands or bluffs, and you will then be having to make a big decision for more money assuming the stacks are still somewhat large relative to the pot.

My main point here is that if you just routinely dog it by smoothcalling small take-control-of-the-hand type of bets when you have position, then you are both letting them improve a worse hand for less and also setup river steal plays (which assumes they do same with the appropriate frequency).

[invisibleleadsoup]

but how often do you think he calls the raise with a hand you beat?
i would think hardly ever...

and if we do flat call on the turn,i would presume we're also calling a bet on the river most of the time,so unless he overbets the river with a worse hand fairly often,which i think is fairly unlikely,we're not going to be put to too many difficult decisions..

[BluffTHIS!]

You are focusing on only one aspect of this thing and need to reread what I have said. The intention isn't so much to get called by a worse hand, but to charge such a hand more to improve and stop certain river steal plays as well as getting a better read on his hand by his actions (if reraises or calls and leads big you have more but not certain confidence you are beat).

[invisibleleadsoup]

so how is raising the turn different from a bluff?
the only way i can think of is if he calls the turn raise then checks the river and we win,which i think doesn't happen very often..