2500th Post... Hand Reading - Page 2

ALReturnsLOL · #11 08-09-2006, 08:21 PM

very nice post.

King Car · #12 08-09-2006, 08:42 PM

nh sir.

ty for the analysis.

bigt439 · #13 08-09-2006, 08:46 PM

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Very nice post. Is a lead/3bet on the flop awful here or are the stacks just too deep?

Ryan

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Well it's not necessarily a bad play by any means, but the depth of the stacks concerned me. It made it kind of awkward to get it in. If i bet 50 or even overbet something like 70 and get a raise from UTG it will be to like 225 or more than likely even less than that (people tend to not raise enough in these games)... then a shove becomes kind of awkward / transparent, while a raise to say 650 makes the turn a little awkward... not because I won't know what to do (obv. allin), but because a bad villain like UTG could go with the thought process of okay I'll call on flop with JJ and then think on the turn... welllll i'm getting such a good price, call. I just thought that there were more optimal ways to play the hand that involved controlling the pot (not necessarily keeping it small, but keeping it the size I want) until I hit my hand where I can cash in. Bad opponents let you do this to them.

Also, just to be clear my plan on the turn was def not bet 3bet allin. It became that given the information the players gave to me and that's one of the most important parts of this hand. Of course I had plans for other, more likely, actions from the villains.

JSH06 · #14 08-09-2006, 08:48 PM

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This is fairly standard. However, if the button is sharp enough and he knows you are capable of this he may be forced to call you. Also, if he is sharp he will occassionally check a set to trap you.

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A good button player will not call you here because this isn't the only type of hand you'll be playing this way. In fact it's a very small percentage of your actual range. He'll usually have at least a good 2 pair or a set here. Therefore, a good majority of the time he's drawing dead or is at least drawing very slim and a small majority of the time he's a 70-30 favorite. I think a good player would lay this down in an instant with that info.

bigt439 · #15 08-09-2006, 08:49 PM

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very nice post. What level of cash do these plays come into play? because at 50nl and 100nl I dont think the players are good enough to lay down hands. Im also learning NL cash and thanks for the advice.

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Well this play was highly opponent dependent, not necessarily game dependent, but your question is a very good one and does have an answer. Like I said it depends on who you are playing but you are MUCH more likely to encounter these opponents at 2/4 and up with the likelihood increasing as you go up.

Also at kinda 5/10 and more 10/20 there are opponents good enough to get what's going on. That's why I love 3/6... I make just as much off the good regulars as I do from the fish because they are soooo predictable and exploitable. I 3-bet regs pf like it's my job... and I guess it kinda is.

Utah · #16 08-09-2006, 08:50 PM

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A good button player will not call you here because this isn't the only type of hand you'll be playing this way.

[/ QUOTE ]You are the button and lets say you have a great read on how OP plays. How do you play this hand? What is your stategy against OP to prevent him from these types of plays?

bigt439 · #17 08-09-2006, 08:55 PM

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This is fairly standard. However, if the button is sharp enough and he knows you are capable of this he may be forced to call you. Also, if he is sharp he will occassionally check a set to trap you.

Also, if he is sharp at reading he would have read you and the raiser to be weak and he would have fired at the flop representing the overpair.

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Couple of things... depends on the level, but this is not standard play at 3/6 or even really 5/10... I'd be very surprised to see villains do this very often at all. Not to be like... hey look at me I can do this and no one else can... but it simply is just not standard.

Couple things about the button. First off he was good, but not great. There's a huge difference. See my reply above, but often good regs are hugely exploitable. This isn't that great an example though because I really think a great reg calling with AQ here would be making a big mistake. My line looks huge and often it will be. The way this hand played out it wasn't huge, but many times I'll have a set here.

Also, regarding the flop, nothing about my check or UTG's check indicates we're weak. Not that taking a shot with air is bad there, but he really wouldn't be repping an overpair (he didn't reraise pf and that player would've... not because you always have to but because UTG's small raise forces you to here). But there are lots of big hands I or UTG could check on that flop (more me than UTG).. .again a bet may be fine from him, but it's def not an auto bet and if it was it would be highly exploitable.

bigt439 · #18 08-09-2006, 08:58 PM

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A good button player will not call you here because this isn't the only type of hand you'll be playing this way.

[/ QUOTE ]You are the button and lets say you have a great read on how OP plays. How do you play this hand? What is your stategy against OP to prevent him from these types of plays?

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Part of the reason this play is so strong is because it is very hard to exploit.

Also, I forgot to address checking a set on the flop before hand. It simply would be a bad play in 99.9% of situations. He would like to build a pot (look how big stacks are in comparison) and he also needs to protect his hand. I check sets behind sometimes as the last to act as well, but I think this would be a bad spot to do it.

And hey... this isn't totally bulletproof... sure he could have a really weirdly played set, but I think this play works more than it's fair share of the time and don't forget I have 15 outs when called (maybe a couple less against a set, but whatever).

Utah · #19 08-09-2006, 09:02 PM

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And hey... this isn't totally bulletproof... sure he could have a really weirdly played set, but I think this play works more than it's fair share of the time and don't forget I have 15 outs when called (maybe a couple less against a set, but whatever).

[/ QUOTE ]I very much like the play and it is certainly correct. However, if I am the button I simply dont want you to have that good of read on me. I will give up some equity and make some odds plays to make things harder on you.

Also, Lets say I call with Q,K and lets agree that it is a bad call for this particular hand. However, it makes it much harder for you to make plays like this in the future.

If I am the button and I flopped nothing I am likely to take a shot at the pot on the flop.

Inyaface · #20 08-09-2006, 09:14 PM

Good post...work must be going slow.

As for questions about bet 3 betting, a decent line is bet call, check turn. Opens a lot of options for the turn depending on pot size including a check raise all in or a lead if you hit or miss depending on pot size again. Since your so deep here a lot more lines become reasonable and you can get more creative.