Folding KK TP on the River - Page 2

swong4444 · #11 08-08-2006, 03:03 PM

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Yes, of course I am calling a single river bet. Bet/Fold seems too weak, folding for one more in a 15+ BB pot. Bet/Call seems like spewage. That left me with the option of check calling.

Why do you prefer bet/fold?

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In general, if I am going to put one bet into a pot on any street, I would rather bet myself than call, especially if I have the initiative. Checking allows your opponents to play optimally by betting all the hands you are losing to, and more importantly checking all of worse hands that probably would've called your bet in this big pot. Over time, you will earn more value from opponents calling your bet w/ the scary river than the bets you save by check/calling. Check/calling is only better than bet/folding if either 1) I can't confidently fold to a raise or 2) the opponent will bet (and maybe bluff) with more hands than they will call with.

You 3bet preflop, you 3bet the flop, you bet the turn, now bet the river. I think the decision on the river is between bet/fold and bet/call. Against some opponents, I can bet/fold (ie, if the button were passive) confidently knowing my overpair is no good.

Buckmulligan · #12 08-08-2006, 03:16 PM

I don't like the river at all. Bet/fold is easy .

Atlanta Andrew · #13 08-08-2006, 03:16 PM

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Yes, of course I am calling a single river bet. Bet/Fold seems too weak, folding for one more in a 15+ BB pot. Bet/Call seems like spewage. That left me with the option of check calling.

Why do you prefer bet/fold?

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In general, if I am going to put one bet into a pot on any street, I would rather bet myself than call, especially if I have the initiative. Checking allows your opponents to play optimally by betting all the hands you are losing to, and more importantly checking all of worse hands that probably would've called your bet in this big pot. Over time, you will earn more value from opponents calling your bet w/ the scary river than the bets you save by check/calling. Check/calling is only better than bet/folding if either 1) I can't confidently fold to a raise or 2) the opponent will bet (and maybe bluff) with more hands than they will call with.

You 3bet preflop, you 3bet the flop, you bet the turn, now bet the river. I think the decision on the river is between bet/fold and bet/call. Against some opponents, I can bet/fold (ie, if the button were passive) confidently knowing my overpair is no good.

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1) Can I confidently fold to a raise for one bet in a 15+ BB pot with top pair? Some opponents maybe, but as you stated yourself, the decision is not clear or easy. I wanted to avoid at all costs paying two bets on this river. Does that make up for the missed value bets - missed bluffs? Probably not, which is why I decided to post this hand and get some feedback. Thanks for the comments.

Andrew

swong4444 · #14 08-08-2006, 03:26 PM

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B/fing the river and calling if it's one back to you are just about the same EV wise IMO.

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There will be some non-zero amount of time that the river checks through and both of the villains in the hand would've called a bet had hero bet. Hands like QJ/AT/KJ probably won't bet the river, but almost always call a single bet.

Atlanta Andrew · #15 08-08-2006, 03:28 PM

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I don't like the river at all. Bet/fold is easy .

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If I believed bet/folding was easy I would be betting this river all day long, but it's hard to find an easy fold with top pair getting over 15-1.

___ · #16 08-08-2006, 03:44 PM

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I don't like the river at all. Bet/fold is easy .

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If I believed bet/folding was easy I would be betting this river all day long, but it's hard to find an easy fold with top pair getting over 15-1.

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No it's not, because nobody is raising a hand you beat in this large protected pot on the river. If it were headsup you might have to consider this, but because it is three way action and neither villain has indicated he is a maniac you can fold. You have boldly announced the strength of your hand - any raise on the end is strictly for value on villain's part.

fwiw, I'm in the river bet/fold camp, but as played this is a clear fold.

duckman · #17 08-08-2006, 04:57 PM

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whooooaa... why did you check the river? you're just asking to get squeezed out. betting the river is not only for value but it protects the pot as well.

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This has happened to me before.

Atlanta Andrew · #18 08-08-2006, 06:56 PM

UTG called with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pair of nines)
Button showed A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (pair of jacks) and dragged the pot as I screamed at my monitor.

I think jba's post nicely and briefly sums up what most of you said: bet the river for value and to protect your hand.

TomBrooks · #19 08-08-2006, 08:04 PM

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UTG called with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pair of nines)
Button showed A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (pair of jacks) and dragged the pot as I screamed at my monitor.

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Holy Christmas. I am surprised at this result.

I wonder if Button would have raised if you bet? I would have probably folded. Sometimes I bet/call in these situations but that is almost always a loser and I've been meaning to force myself to fold to a river raise on a hand like this.

___ · #20 08-09-2006, 01:47 AM

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UTG called with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pair of nines)
Button showed A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (pair of jacks) and dragged the pot as I screamed at my monitor.

I think jba's post nicely and briefly sums up what most of you said: bet the river for value and to protect your hand.

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Button is an expert hand reader and totally owned you. cf. The section "When you do not want overcalls" in SSH. Make a note of his tricky expert play.

PS It's not always a mistake to fold the winner - you have to play the odds. Seeing how villain played the hand changes your evaluation of the odds in the future, but you didn't have that information at the time. Your fold was correct, even if it was predicated by incorrect play.

Some players make a mistake and then make another mistake to compound it. For example, they enter the pot loosely and then fold or check a turn they should have bet or called because their hand started weak but has now improved to mediocre. Keep previous streets' actions in mind when reading hands, but don't let past decisions misdirect your current one.