Tiltware relocating to Ireland...

[amulet]

they are probably making a mistake. i had 2 different law firms review which countries were preferable to locate my parent company. the problem with ireland is that the irish tax authorities refuse to define "goods and services". therefore, they may only mean manufacturing, software and other intellectual property make be taxed at a higher rate. until the irish tax authorities define "goods and services" luxembourg seems superior. to date there are indications that they only mean manufacturing in ireland . the EU is currently trying to get them to define it. the other problem with ireland is that doing any busies there can be time consuming - the culture seems anti-business. i know many major companies have relocated there/or have major divisions there, but according to the opinion i paid for lreland's laws are currently "grey".

[olivert]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, if this is in the wrong forum. If it belongs in the "Poker Legislation" or "Suspenders & Bras" or whichever forum, please move it there.

I just accidentally stumbled upon the news that the company behind Full Tilt, Tiltware, is relocating to Dublin, Ireland. I only got news of it, because my recruitment agent is forwarding my CV to them.

Now, if Tiltware is making this move I get this creeping feeling that they know something we don't know. This is starting to look sombre for the future of online poker in the US...

Any thoughts?

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TiltWare really has no choice but to get out of the U.S. in order not to be caught flat-footed if and when anti-online gaming legislation were to become law in the U.S.

TiltWare has only begun its marketing efforts in Europe (Germany, UK), and TiltWare currently has no presence in East Asia, particularly the Chinese-speaking markets (China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Macau), which are expected to be the hot battle grounds in the next 36 months.

The U.S. market ultimately may not even be MATERIAL to the online poker industry. Why not? Because the China market is 4 times the size of the U.S. market.

Efforts are underway by a number of heavy-hitters, including the WPTE-MGM MIRAGE-Ho family alliance, to lobby the Chinese government for explicit licenses to operate online poker businesses in Mainland China.

Whoever controls the online poker market in China is expected to control at least 50%, or not closer to 75%, of the online poker and TV poker business by the year 2015.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

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The U.S. market ultimately may not even be MATERIAL to the online poker industry. Why not? Because the China market is 4 times the size of the U.S. market.

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China may or may not ever amount to anything in the online poker world. yeah there are a billion people there, but most are dirt poor, have no credit cards, and most have never heard of poker. successfully convincing them that texas hold em is what they should be doing may or may not ever happen.

[olivert]

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[ QUOTE ]
The U.S. market ultimately may not even be MATERIAL to the online poker industry. Why not? Because the China market is 4 times the size of the U.S. market.

[/ QUOTE ]

China may or may not ever amount to anything in the online poker world. yeah there are a billion people there, but most are dirt poor, have no credit cards, and most have never heard of poker. successfully convincing them that texas hold em is what they should be doing may or may not ever happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have absolutely no clue.

You need to do a LOT more reading and talk to a LOT more people before you post something as ignorant as your response above.

The typical Chinese gambler from the Chinese-speaking markets in East Asia is the most-prized gambler in the gaming industry, as he is loose, aggressive, and is willing to bet on almost anything.

Ask any casino mega-resort executive in Las Vegas who their most-prized "whales" are, and they will tell you that their most-prized "whales" are from the Chinese-speaking markets in East Asia, including China.

The annual gaming revenue in the Macau SAR, which is now part of China, is about to surpass the annual gaming revenue in Las Vegas, even without Texas Hold'em being in Macau. That will soon change.

(Blackjack and Baccarat are NOT Chinese games, but Chinese-speaking gamblers who visit Macau play them. If there is a chance to win money, Chinese-speaking gamblers in general will take that chance.)

There is simply too much money to be made by introducing Texas Hold'em to China for the poker industry to ignore China completely.

If one out of every one thousand people in China were to put up 1000 yuan, or about USD$125, to play in a WSOP main event satellite, then China alone would send 13000 players to the WSOP Main Event.

That statistic should wake you up.

Are there enough people in China now who have the economic means to risk 1000 yuan for a 100-to-1 shot to play the WSOP Main Event?

The answer would have been NO 5 years ago, but the answer now is definitely YES.

Like I said, the U.S. online poker market might not even be material to any major player in the online poker industry 10 years from now. The U.S. is now a mature market, with at best single-digit percentage growth from this point forward if unfavorable legislation were to continue to fail.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The U.S. market ultimately may not even be MATERIAL to the online poker industry. Why not? Because the China market is 4 times the size of the U.S. market.

[/ QUOTE ]

China may or may not ever amount to anything in the online poker world. yeah there are a billion people there, but most are dirt poor, have no credit cards, and most have never heard of poker. successfully convincing them that texas hold em is what they should be doing may or may not ever happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have absolutely no clue.

You need to do a LOT more reading and talk to a LOT more people before you post something as ignorant as your response above.

The typical Chinese gambler from the Chinese-speaking markets in East Asia is the most-prized gambler in the gaming industry, as he is loose, aggressive, and is willing to bet on almost anything.

Ask any casino mega-resort executive in Las Vegas who their most-prized "whales" are, and they will tell you that their most-prized "whales" are from the Chinese-speaking markets in East Asia, including China.

The annual gaming revenue in the Macau SAR, which is now part of China, is about to surpass the annual gaming revenue in Las Vegas, even without Texas Hold'em being in Macau. That will soon change.

There is simply too much money to be made by introducing Texas Hold'em to China for it NOT to happen.

If one out of every one thousand people in China were to put up 1000 yuan, or about USD$125, to play in a WSOP main event satellite, then China alone would send 13000 players to the WSOP Main Event. That statistic should wake you up.



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Oliver you really didn't contradict anything I said.

Here is a list of countries ranked by per capital GDP. The Peoples Republic of China is 110th, just between Morocco and Iraq, at $1,700 PA. This means the vast majority of people there are poor by US standards - and yes there is a population of super rich people. These are the whales you talk about. But, online poker isn't about locating whales, it's what bringing a simple game to the masses that everyone can play and understand. if the vast majority of people do not have the means or ability to deposit money into a pay site, then what you are talking about is a big poker market, but far from one that will make North America immaterial.

IF online poker becomes popular in China, then yeah it will dwarf the US market. But why are you so sure poker will become popular there, instead of an Chinese specific game?

[junglewarfare]

people who relaly think the china market is going to be huge are fooling themselves, there are several large and obvious barriers to that happening.

[bruceypants]

[olivert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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The U.S. market ultimately may not even be MATERIAL to the online poker industry. Why not? Because the China market is 4 times the size of the U.S. market.

[/ QUOTE ]

China may or may not ever amount to anything in the online poker world. yeah there are a billion people there, but most are dirt poor, have no credit cards, and most have never heard of poker. successfully convincing them that texas hold em is what they should be doing may or may not ever happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have absolutely no clue.

You need to do a LOT more reading and talk to a LOT more people before you post something as ignorant as your response above.

The typical Chinese gambler from the Chinese-speaking markets in East Asia is the most-prized gambler in the gaming industry, as he is loose, aggressive, and is willing to bet on almost anything.

Ask any casino mega-resort executive in Las Vegas who their most-prized "whales" are, and they will tell you that their most-prized "whales" are from the Chinese-speaking markets in East Asia, including China.

The annual gaming revenue in the Macau SAR, which is now part of China, is about to surpass the annual gaming revenue in Las Vegas, even without Texas Hold'em being in Macau. That will soon change.

There is simply too much money to be made by introducing Texas Hold'em to China for it NOT to happen.

If one out of every one thousand people in China were to put up 1000 yuan, or about USD$125, to play in a WSOP main event satellite, then China alone would send 13000 players to the WSOP Main Event. That statistic should wake you up.



[/ QUOTE ]

Oliver you really didn't contradict anything I said.

Here is a list of countries ranked by per capital GDP. The Peoples Republic of China is 110th, just between Morocco and Iraq, at $1,700 PA. This means the vast majority of people there are poor by US standards - and yes there is a population of super rich people. These are the whales you talk about. But, online poker isn't about locating whales, it's what bringing a simple game to the masses that everyone can play and understand. if the vast majority of people do not have the means or ability to deposit money into a pay site, then what you are talking about is a big poker market, but far from one that will make North America immaterial.

IF online poker becomes popular in China, then yeah it will dwarf the US market. But why are you so sure poker will become popular there, instead of an Chinese specific game?

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Poker is still a NICHE activity in the U.S., not a "mass market" activity.

Only about 1 out of 300 people in the U.S. watch an average WSOP Episode on ESPN.

Poker doesn't have to be a "mass market" product in China in order for China to become the biggest online poker market in the world.

Like I said above: Chinese-speaking gamblers play a lot of Baccarat and Blackjack when they go to Macau. Neither are "Chinese" games.

Horse Racing in Hong Kong, Greyhound Racing in Macau, the lottery in Hong Kong, and wagering on the outcome of English Premier League soccer matches are NOT "Chinese" games either, but Chinese-speaking gamblers flock to those activities.

The typical Chinese-speaking gambler does NOT have a particular preference to a particular type of game. He is usually willing to bet on ANYTHING.

(The reverse is true for the typical Japanese gambler, who plays Pachinko exclusively.)

There is no reason to believe that the Chinese-speaking gambler will ignore Texas Hold'em.

[ematz]

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It is a good move on the part of TiltWare LLC. They are just planning ahead.

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Their old website (tiltware.com) is gone.

[Jamougha]

Macau is now bigger than Vegas. If they can solve the legal and marketing issues in china *shivers* I will be one happy bunny.