You make the ruling: Do the big chips play in this "all-in" push?

[sirpupnyc]

Count the whites as $5 each (i.e., make the bet what it appeared to be).

Tell A he has to keep his big chips in view, and maybe they'll get paid off next time.

Tell B to check the amount of a bet before he calls it.

Tell the dealer to call the floor when these things happen, rather than letting the uproar attract the floor's attention.

[Percula]

While player A should not be allowed to keep his high value chips under his lower value chips because of this exact situation... IMHO only in case#3 are the high value chips clearly and intentionally hidden from the other players and only in case#3 they would not play.

While it is unfortune that the position of the players at the table make it harder to see that over a 1/4 of the stack is a different color/value in case #1 and #2, it is responsibility of the caller of the AI bet to varify the wager before calling. I am sure this would never be an issue if it were seat 3 and seat 9 in the hand. So if the chips are visable to the majority of the table, which in this case I think they are, then too bad for player B.

After all, how hard is it to lean forward and look, ask for a count, even an estimate of the wager. Anyone that plays live NL, knows to varify the action before acting themselves.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Do not stack high denomination chips below lower denomination chips. Even if you put them in the front row, as in this example, the people adjacent to you might not be able to see them.

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I interpret Rick's diagram to mean that the big chips were NOT in the front row, but buried in the back.

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Given DOS graphics I should have started an image shack account, went into MS Paint, tried my hand at pictures (I don't even doodle well)) or added some verbiage. You are right, the big chips are in back buried against the rail or in the last case completely surrounded by other chips.

~ Rick

[AKQJ10]

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(only thing more he could have done is paint the edges of the whites red).

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But that would be -EV in LA, since I believe the $5 chips are probably yellow. :-D

[Rick Nebiolo]

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As to how the actual decision should be made there are a couple of things to consider. Rick tried to draw us a picture of what the chips looked like, it depends on how easy or hard it might have been to see the white chips. It also depends on which white chips they were, if they were the oversized white I am far less inclined to believe that they were hidden.

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This club has two size white chips, one over-sized and one regular size. I think (I was at the next table) these chips were the regular size. The chips were out of view, but the top few (below the fourteen $5 chips) could have been seen by someone peering or standing behind Player A. The arrangement of the chips was re-assembled for the purposes of the floor's decision, I got to take a break and silently watch.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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(only thing more he could have done is paint the edges of the whites red).

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But that would be -EV in LA, since I believe the $5 chips are probably yellow. :-D

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Yep, $5 chips in LA are yellow [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Tell the dealer to call the floor when these things happen, rather than letting the uproar attract the floor's attention.

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I used a little literary license here. The dealer did call the floor, but the immediate uproar probably attracted the attention of the floor (who was a few feet away) first.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Anyone that plays live NL, knows to varify the action before acting themselves.

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In LA the smaller games (with fixed buys $200 and below) are full of newbies. Many of them don't do a good job of protecting themselves.

T think this game was a "tweener" game, with a $300 to $500 spread buy-in and two $5 blinds. The $200 fixed buy has $3 and $5 blinds. The same club has $5 $10 blind $500 games (four going this night) and sometimes a $10 $20 $1000 minimum game.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Btw, it's a players responsibility to know what is in play, also a dealer's responsibility to make sure all bigger denom. chips are visible at all times.

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How on earth can you expect a dealer to know there are higher chips hidden in the back of that guy's stack? You don't want dealers to inspect all stacks before dealing a hand, do you?

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Good point. The dealer is really only in position to ask Player A to make his big chips more clearly shown in the second case (since the big chips are at the bottom of the inner-outside stack, but away from the players in seats one, two and three). As a practical matter though the dealer couldn't see the big chips in example one or three from the OP.

From a procedural standpoint, the person in the best position to facilitate things may be the floorperson. As he strolls around the area when he isn't too busy he could occasionally ask players (in between deals) to keep the big chips in clear view. He wouldn't have to do this too often (so as not to be a floorman nit), since over time most players would get the idea. Of course this is in the category of "fire-prevention", and "fire-prevention" is rarely as good for one's career or as glamorous as "fire-fighting" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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player should know how much the other guy has

that being said, if I were writing the rules it would be specified that each individual denomination must be in its own stack

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This is an area where I believe the TDA Tournament Rules are ahead of the ring game rules and could be adapted to ring games. Rule 20 in the TDA rules says "Players must keep their highest denomination chips visible at all times." Maybe the wording could be tweaked but I think this may be a good rule for the floor.

~ Rick