2-7 TD, Calling Pre-Flop

[*TT*]

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I hate playing in the SB and take it really slow in this spot, bloated pots OOP just suck, but you have to mix it up once in a while so your opponents dont KNOW youre on a 1 carddraw if you get frisky in the SB.

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this is actually the one position I don't mind being predictable in against good thinking players, of course I try not to be but if I am its not such a horrible thing. The small blind is at a huge disadvantage because Triple Draw is a game where position is one of the most important elements to strategy.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[*TT*]

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I liked SS2's section and learned a lot of it, but it has kind of a cookie-cutter balls to the wall aggression tone to it that is oversimplified I think.

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I think the real problem is that too many people read the chaper and only take what they want from it, few people really apply the lessons Daniel has layed out for us. Although he made a few very minor errors in strategy (not considering pot size is the #1 error but its not as critical as you might assume it to be in the average scenario) the text is fundimentally sound when applied correctly while being mindful of siuations where a devition from the norm is required. Read Theory of Poker, understand it, and apply it.. in the end thats all it takes.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[AlanBostick]

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In the SB, position works against you rather than for you. You'd rather put less money in. A hand like 732 is probably worth playing but you might not want to reraise.

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Given that your position is teh sux0r in the small blind, which would you rather do with a decent hand: play it out of position heads-up, or play it out of position with two horses to outrun rather than just one?

I know some of you pooh-pooh stealing with 3-card draws on the button; but if you are up against an opponent who does this often, isn't it the case that the reraise with a hand like 732 can be seen as raising for value? You can often resteal after the first draw if the attacker doesn't improve.

[MarkGritter]

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In the SB, position works against you rather than for you. You'd rather put less money in. A hand like 732 is probably worth playing but you might not want to reraise.

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Given that your position is teh sux0r in the small blind, which would you rather do with a decent hand: play it out of position heads-up, or play it out of position with two horses to outrun rather than just one?

I know some of you pooh-pooh stealing with 3-card draws on the button; but if you are up against an opponent who does this often, isn't it the case that the reraise with a hand like 732 can be seen as raising for value? You can often resteal after the first draw if the attacker doesn't improve.

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You make a good point--- dealing with just one player OOP is in some ways easier than playing two. But I think with a seven draw you will often have a decent sense of where you stand even in a multiway pot. The button is less likely to get cute and try to drive you off a hand or stand pat very rough. Maybe you really are better off playing this three-handed OOP instead of two-handed OOP, in answer to TT's question. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Is the BB going to have a hand with which he will call one bet, but not two, often enough that the reraise has value? You are almost certainly losing money if BB's hand is equal or better than yours. You are only saving money if you cause him to fold a hand you don't want to compete with. Again, we don't really know whether having 72xxx in the pot helps or hurts 732xx or 7432x. (My guess is overall it hurts but I could easily see it going the other way.)

3-betting as a defense against a steal is pretty standard, but I would be somewhat cautious as this can commit you to seeing the second draw. It is also less likely to make a resteal work.

On the other hand, you will often get capped by the legitimate hands so reopening the betting has its own risks.

Are you suggesting an autobet against a button who draws three, even if you don't improve? I have mixed feelings about this play and I actually think this is not a horrible place to give a free card. The three-card draw is quite likely to improve by at least one card. But, since there are already 5 SB (or 7SB) in the pot, a bet may show some profit... the problem is when you get raised.

[*TT*]

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3-betting as a defense against a steal is pretty standard, but I would be somewhat cautious as this can commit you to seeing the second draw. It is also less likely to make a resteal work.

On the other hand, you will often get capped by the legitimate hands so reopening the betting has its own risks.

Are you suggesting an autobet against a button who draws three, even if you don't improve? I have mixed feelings about this play and I actually think this is not a horrible place to give a free card. The three-card draw is quite likely to improve by at least one card. But, since there are already 5 SB (or 7SB) in the pot, a bet may show some profit... the problem is when you get raised.

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We must also consider that the average player who steals on the button with 2 cards usually does so with 2 reasonable cards without a 6, so the range is limited to 27xxx, 23xx, 24xxx, 25xxx, 37xxx, 35xxx for the most part. If the action goes button raise, SB 3-bet, BB fold, button call thats 7 big bets in the pot after the first draw, and then assuming the SB bets its now 8 big bets.

Are you ready for something shocking? The button would be correct to call if he does not improve provided he has a clean draw in a HU pot. You are laying him 8:1, he better call if he likes money! The standard TAG 3-bet from the SB defense does not work as we all thought it did, it is spewing chips unnecessarily. In most games I have witnessed the TAG would have been better off calling in the SB because a three bet won't shut out the BB from most draws anyway(with the exception of 3 card draws containing a duce).

to wrap this up lets compare all the scenarios:

SB 3-bets & BB folds: Laying 8:1 to the button on the second draw - Button is correct to call the bet
SB 3-bets & BB calls: Laying at least 10:1 or more to the button on the second draw - Button is correct to call the bet
SB calls & BB folds: Laying 5:1 to the button on the second draw (assuming the SB bets round 2)- Button is not getting the odds to correctly call a bet
SB calls & BB calls: Laying at least 6:1 - )- Button is not getting the odds to correctly call a bet

Lets all say my mantra now..... pot size manipulation. Some day I will learn to practice what I preach (I admit I don't always do that when playing online because TD makes me steam a little bit still, I do however when I am playing live).

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[*TT*]

I would like to add something obvious but I should have said earlier in my prior post. 3-betting against a button steal is a value bet, even though you are giving your opponent on the button the odds to continue, but all value bets are not created equal - this isn't the same as capping on the button with AA in a multi-way pot in Holdem as an example.

As our resident theory expert Mark Gritter pointed out the hero needs to improve just like the villain does in the scenario I provided above or he can lose the pot, regardless of the equity the hero has even a hand such as KQJT2 beats 23455 in triple draw on the final round. Conversely there is greater inherent value in 3-betting A23 rainbow in Badugi than there is 3-betting 237xx in triple draw in the same scenario purely because A23x is a showdown hand where as 237xx is not.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[MarkGritter]

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Are you ready for something shocking? The button would be correct to call if he does not improve provided he has a clean draw in a HU pot. You are laying him 8:1, he better call if he likes money! The standard TAG 3-bet from the SB defense does not work as we all thought it did, it is spewing chips unnecessarily. In most games I have witnessed the TAG would have been better off calling in the SB because a three bet won't shut out the BB from most draws anyway(with the exception of 3 card draws containing a duce).


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TT,

That's sort of the point of the 3-bet (as you know from reading Sklansky on Razz.) Yes, your opponent is committed to two draws. But he also can't stand pat and scare you off on the next round because you are committed as well.

So, as usual, it comes down to playing the player. One should probably be 3-betting a tricky opponent so that a snow or semisnow isn't profitable, but merely calling a more straightforward opponent, particularly one who will call too much.

Tapirboy has suggested, in conversations in the past, that he makes the most money by convincing people to fold incorrectly, which makes perfect sense from a FTOP perspective---- if you have good control over an opponent then the bigger pot makes these folds even worse, and you might want to 3-bet. My opinion is that players who fold too much are too rare to plan around.

Mark

[*TT*]

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if you have good control over an opponent then the bigger pot makes these folds even worse, and you might want to 3-bet. My opinion is that players who fold too much are too rare to plan around.

Mark

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The only error I see in your analysis Mark is that you aren't factoring in the BB. My point was that from experience in both high limit games as well as low limit games most BB players will call 2 bets with the same hands they would have called one bet with (with the exception of 3 card draws with are significantly diminished in possibility if the hero holds a duce).

So back to your analysis, you are right that everything is player dependent, the hero must factor int the likelihood of the BB calling a 3-bet as well as the post-flop playing style of the button. If the BB is tight I like a 3-bet a lot more i those times we are binding the button to the pot and he is capable of an incorrect fold on later streets. If however the BB is apt to call with any reasonable starting hand such as 258xx (as most opponents are) or the big blind is often showdown bound, the 3-bet is not recommended. As everything is in poker, you must factor in both the situation as well as the mathematical reality.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]