2+2 vs. Hellmuth - Page 2

BlueSmurf · #11 07-01-2006, 04:04 AM

Hello Andy

7CSFAP p. 137 and Hellmuth p. 299. Both sections involve re-raising. I've come to believe that the rationale behind the Razz example (7CSFAP) makes more sense in its 7CS context (p. 138-140) than in its original Razz context. I really, really cannot see why I wouldn't want to re-raise a 7 with my 6. I realise that I might accidentally make villain's 4th street play correct about half the time, but I gain equity on 3rd (Sklansky dollars) plus the gained equity of the table seeing I push good hands (subsequent bluffing credibility) plus giving myself odds to continue with the hand rather than laying down a shot 6 on 4th should I catch bad.

I suppose that one could (if one were fired from one's job for instance and so having the time for such endeavours) sit down and calculate precisely how much you gain or lose by the 7CSFAP way. Also, as Blumpkin pointed out, you'd have to assign some sort of likelihood that villain actually has the 7.

Smurf confused.

Andy B · #12 07-01-2006, 12:29 PM

Oh, right, it's "A Concept Borrowed from Razz" or some such. Sorry about that. I'm still not going to get up and find the book. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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I suppose that one could (if one were fired from one's job for instance and so having the time for such endeavours) sit down and calculate precisely how much you gain or lose by the 7CSFAP way.

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David Sklansky hasn't had a day job in quite some time, and I would be extremely surprised if he hasn't done precisely this. Go to twodimes and run a three-card Six vs. a three-card Seven. The three-card Six is only a tiny favorite. Now run a four-card vs. a three-card low with a banana. The four-card low is a prohibitive favorite.

As a good player, you will fold on fourth street when the other guy catches good and you catch bad. The bad player will take one off in this spot. This is very profitable for you, and these scenarios are very common. By grabbing that very small equity share on third street, you are passing on what will be a much more profitable situation overall on fourth.

Alex/Mugaaz · #13 07-01-2006, 01:12 PM

As Andy has repeated many times already, there is more to consider than "I have an equity edge, so I bet/raise".

First of all you're a tiny favorite. You are not giving up Sklansky dollars, you're giving up Skalanksy cents. You are also defining your hand further to the villain, which negates some of your edge further down the hand. There is no reason to take some the best of it if you have the option of taking much the best of it. VS overly loose opponents it makes sense to exploit their giant weakness - Calling. You also have to consider how well you play, if you're prone to bad calls yourself your opponent should call the bet/raise everytime because he knows he is basicaly getting implied odds later in the hand.

There is more to consider than the vacuum of single street thinkng. Why is your opponent bad, what are his worst mistakes? What is the best way you can exploit them? If your opponents biggest mistake is that he is too loose, then why negate your edge by bloating the pot early in coinflip scenarios?

The opposite of this applies, some people always fold 4th when they brick, so you should raise 3rd everytime. You can see similair examples of this in holdem. Like with 33 OTB and 5 limpers to you, against so-so opponents raising is great, you are getting them to incorrectly chase when you hit, which is usually what you want. On the opposite side, if they were all going to call down anyway then you might as well just call. If you had AA or KK you should raise now because you're a huge favorite, but with JJ maybe you should just call if you think there is a reasonable chance of being able to knock people out if the flop comes good. (I'll admit the JJ example isn't a big difference either way).

BlueSmurf · #14 07-01-2006, 04:57 PM

Hmmmm ... okay. I think I might just understand it now (but I still sooooo want to raise). Well, thanks for all your excellent replies.

By entailment, I see why peeling when you brick on 4th with a low-only hand is such a ... ummm ... marginal play in stud/8.

Dromar · #15 07-01-2006, 08:31 PM

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David Sklansky hasn't had a day job in quite some time, and I would be extremely surprised if he hasn't done precisely this. Go to twodimes and run a three-card Six vs. a three-card Seven. The three-card Six is only a tiny favorite. Now run a four-card vs. a three-card low with a banana. The four-card low is a prohibitive favorite.

As a good player, you will fold on fourth street when the other guy catches good and you catch bad. The bad player will take one off in this spot. This is very profitable for you, and these scenarios are very common. By grabbing that very small equity share on third street, you are passing on what will be a much more profitable situation overall on fourth.

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That's a very interesting realization!

Andy B · #16 07-01-2006, 09:27 PM

If by "ummm...marginal" you mean "bad," I agree. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] There was someone on here a few weeks ago who was very insistent that it is correct to take one off when you catch a banana on fourth street. I was busy at the time, what with thumbing through baseball cards and all, and never got to make the detailed response I wanted to. Maybe some time this weekend.

BlueSmurf · #17 07-02-2006, 12:13 PM

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If by "ummm...marginal" you mean "bad," I agree. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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He he ... I make my living in Academia and so "marginal" means "bad", "interesting" means "something I'd expect to hear someone say on the Jerry Springer Show" while "X suggests that Y might not be optimal in terms of Z" means "the most braindead, godawful, honest-to-God ATROCIOUS piece of IDIOCY mankind has ever witnessed."

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Smurf