July 1, 1916

[Peter666]

The Haig apologists are silly. The sign of a great general is to adopt and apply new strategies to changing circumstances as quickly as possible. Day one of the Somme was enough to tell anyone with half a brain that things were horribly wrong with current military tactics. That nothing significant was done about it on the British side was ridiculous. I guess Stalin was right when he said that millions dying only feels like a statistic.

The French on the other hand had General Petain step up to the plate in the late stages of the war and become a hero.

[OrigamiSensei]

ExSub, thanks for the compliment - my college roommate and a number of friends served on boomers.

As for Churchill I'm fairly sure he wasn't busy at the Admiralty during the Somme. According to what I can find Churchill was forced out of his office as First Lord of the Admiralty in May 1915 as a result of the Gallipoli disaster and unresolvable conflicts with First Sea Lord Jacky Fisher who was also pushed out at that time. I'm having trouble figuring our the rest of the sequence from my sources right now but after that he served on the Dardanelles Committee for a while and then I'm pretty sure that in 1916 at some point Churchill actually wound up serving with his regiment somewhere on the Western Front. However, if memory serves it was in Belgium and if memory also serves he was with the Navy Division in Belgium for a little while in 1914.

[Exsubmariner]

[ QUOTE ]
ExSub, thanks for the compliment - my college roommate and a number of friends served on boomers.

As for Churchill I'm fairly sure he wasn't busy at the Admiralty during the Somme. According to what I can find Churchill was forced out of his office as First Lord of the Admiralty in May 1915 as a result of the Gallipoli disaster and unresolvable conflicts with First Sea Lord Jacky Fisher who was also pushed out at that time. I'm having trouble figuring our the rest of the sequence from my sources right now but after that he served on the Dardanelles Committee for a while and then I'm pretty sure that in 1916 at some point Churchill actually wound up serving with his regiment somewhere on the Western Front. However, if memory serves it was in Belgium and if memory also serves he was with the Navy Division in Belgium for a little while in 1914.

[/ QUOTE ]

The comment on Churchill was off the cuff. Not to be taken literally. I know he was relieved for Gallipoli, but I wasn't sure of the date. I probably got the number of generals Lincoln fired wrong as well.

Anyway, I think a Gallipoli post is in order some time in the near future. I bet you could do a bang up job if you wanted to take it on. I would also like to take this opportunity to nominate you for President of the TLR history club.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
If you feel Wikipedia is incorrect, you should dispute their article.

Truly, I have not studied this battle in depth, but perhaps you are thinking of the missing, or perhaps just one phase of the campaign.

If Abe Lincoln had just gone with what he had instead of firing six generals, the union would have lost. Haig should have been replaced. It's too bad for the British that Sir Winston was busy being Lord of the Admiralty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am using the Wiki numbers, just the column that says killed & missing, not total casualties.

Surely you jest at Churchill replacing Haig. Especially after the brilliant campaign he planned at Gallipoli. His tenure at the Admiralty was not his finest hour.

[Zeno]

Thanks for the post. I think this will help you in making other planned posts on large-scale battles, like Midway. Perhaps it would be more effective to post a part 1, part 11 etc., at some natural break in the action, to better explain large and complex battles.

In just passing, I think The Battle(s) of the Somme illustrates well the natural inertia in human thinking, the inherent lag to account for advances in technology and to anticipate all the consequences that stem from those advances. This applies to warfare as to other fields. But some people do excel at this anticipation, others less so, and some are just plain dull and fail to grasp what is really occurring about them, for whatever variety of reasons.

I've really enjoyed your Battle posts and the interesting discussions that they have stimulated.

-Zeno

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
The Haig apologists are silly. The sign of a great general is to adopt and apply new strategies to changing circumstances as quickly as possible. Day one of the Somme was enough to tell anyone with half a brain that things were horribly wrong with current military tactics. That nothing significant was done about it on the British side was ridiculous. I guess Stalin was right when he said that millions dying only feels like a statistic.

The French on the other hand had General Petain step up to the plate in the late stages of the war and become a hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the British tactics did change considerably, that's the whole argument currently going on. Everything changed, from the way artillery was used, to combined arms, to the use of aircraft and the introduction of tanks. The British by the end of the war had basically invented the German tactics for the next war.

[Peter666]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Haig apologists are silly. The sign of a great general is to adopt and apply new strategies to changing circumstances as quickly as possible. Day one of the Somme was enough to tell anyone with half a brain that things were horribly wrong with current military tactics. That nothing significant was done about it on the British side was ridiculous. I guess Stalin was right when he said that millions dying only feels like a statistic.

The French on the other hand had General Petain step up to the plate in the late stages of the war and become a hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the British tactics did change considerably, that's the whole argument currently going on. Everything changed, from the way artillery was used, to combined arms, to the use of aircraft and the introduction of tanks. The British by the end of the war had basically invented the German tactics for the next war.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe (English) historians who argue that the English invented German tactics. The Germans almost won WWI in the end with their innovative storm troopers until they ran out of steam in the end. This was later developed into the famous Blitzkreig approach. The Germans got out of the trenches before the English, but unfortunately for them faced fresh troops and superior numbers due to American intervention. If the Americans for whatever reason had joined the Germans, the allies would have been toast.

Also, it is interesting to note that all modern infantry innovations adopted by armies today: Digital camouflage, night vision and the assault rifle were all developed by the Germans during WWII.

[Exsubmariner]

Oops. My bad. I thought casualties meant something other than what they use it for.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
Oops. My bad. I thought casualties meant something other than what they use it for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry, I make the same mistake all the time. It's actually difficult to find breakdowns of KIA/Wounded/Missing/POW for a lot of battles, they just get lumped together as casualties, which means anything from they couldn't find anything more than a fingernail to tripped on rock and had to go to aid station. Add in that some guys get wounded 3 or 4 times over a long battle, and it really gets confusing.

[daveymck]

I watched the documentary that the article talked about, was an interesting watch although the main points are covered in the article.

I think most people do only think about the first days of the battle, particulary the fist morning, certainly in school that was the focus of study, and obviously so its the bloodiest day in british history and the imagery is so powerful from it as well as the obvious mistakes.

The documentary did get over how the British adapted the tactics, improved intelligence and more importantly changed the way frontline command was performed. I think it used the attack in September as it was a stark contrast to the July 1st one but I guess with the jump it missed out how they got to the new tactics and more highlighted how they corrected the mistakes form July 1st.

Overall it did show a new perspective on the battle, but moreso highlighted the bravery and suffering of the participants in both defeat and victory, and yes it made you feel like cheering when the tank appeared for the first time even if they didnt use it in the most effective way.