ajmargarine Hand, BalugaWhale comment....new thread

[bilbo-san]

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BalugaWhale says the following about this hand (Hero's cards don't matter for this discussion):

"c/r only gets called by monsters"

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I just totally disagree with this premise.

Seriously, all my buddie-list friends with WtSD > 30% did not get this stat by folding to C/raises.

Many fish simply do not fold top pair...ever.

[jakerc]

i agree, your average SSNL villain isn't folding AQ here to a c/r. i think a better line if we want to get him off the hand is to call and then c/r a heart turn. however, since we are OOP there's a good chance that AQ will check behind here, and then i don't think they are folding on the river no matter what happens, unless the river brings the fourth heart on the board or we push.

[Matt_BB]

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"c/r only gets called by monsters"

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This just hasn't been my experience. I have the strong feeling that many players who I face will call a check-raise with top pair and then go into call-down mode, trying to get a showdown as cheeply as possible.

A check-raise followed by a big bet on the turn might push them off top pair. But that is more expensive when you are wrong.

Edit to add: oops should have read the other replies before I posted. Comforting to see I agree with the majority at least.

[ChipStorm]

Think about the fundamentals of the play. A checkraise has the net effect of increasing the size of the pot, while at the same time offering better pot odds to your opponent to call than might otherwise be the case if you just led. The reason is straightforward: when you raise, villain has already put his money in, and you have already called him.

So when would you ever want to do this? Answer: when you have a monster. It's a trap play, and if your villain isn't astute enough to recognize that you may be trapping him, then doing it with a lesser hand is a mistake, for the reasons above -- you ARE bloating the pot, and you ARE offering him better odds than just leading out.

I checkraise flop sometimes when I hit my set on a very dry flop vs. a preflop raiser. I do it to trap his c-bet, because there's some chance that if I lead I won't even get that. But even with a monster draw, I'd rather bet/3bet.

[NT!]

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A checkraise has the net effect of increasing the size of the pot, while at the same time offering better pot odds to your opponent to call than might otherwise be the case if you just led.

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You can control the odds your opponent gets with the size of your raise, same as you can with the size of your lead.

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So when would you ever want to do this? Answer: when you have a monster.

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You need to do it with a variety of hands against the right players. If you only do it with monsters you're giving away way too much.

To answer your question Dog, you have to consider what your image is. If I am playing more loose and fast (or appear to be) I do it both with big hands and with draws, especially against players who like to get suspicious or courageous or just hate folding. Also with air against tighter players from time to time. If you get more respect at the table or are against tighter opponents you can also do it with made hands or air in heads up pots, to prevent opponents from c-betting you at will.

You also have to be aware of the net effect of frequent check-raises - most average or mediocre NL players hate getting check-raised and hate you as a result. If you c/r a lot in a particular session you may get played back at more often, or you may start forcing opponents to be more passive, depending on what they're like.

NT

[Matt_BB]

It isn't the same. When you check-raise you are turning implied odds into immediate odds. This is especially significant in internet NL games because the stacks tend only to be around the 100bb mark to begin with. The winner will get all of the immediate odds every time, because that money is already in the pot. The winner doesn't always manage to realize the implied odds he thought were there.

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...You can control the odds your opponent gets with the size of your raise, same as you can with the size of your lead...

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