Personality traits affect game (long)

[killphilNI]

Good post Justin, I have been looking for a discussion of this type on this forum. I studied psychology a little earlier in my degree and we covered personality traits. There are 5 major personality traits (scientifically proven). The neurohormone hypothesis is interesting and logical but over time it has largely fallen out of favour and has been replaced by the 5 robust factors, namely:

Openness to experience
Conscientiousness
Extraversion/Intraversion
Agreeableness
Neuroticism

(OCEAN is an easy way of remembering them)

Here is a wikipedia explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_fiv...onality_traits

Have a read through and see what you think. Although I didn't develop a scoring system, it was something that had crossed my mind but I didn't know where I would begin scoring everyone at the table on these five factors. Instead, I read over these traits a few times to help me better understand my opponents. It certainly helped my game a lot but it wasn't as poker-relevant the stuff in your post.

[JJNJustin]

Thanks for the responses, ya'll. Here are some other things I thought about:

rigid players tend to do best at games that rely on being disciplined and routined like limit hold'em and limit 7-stud and poorly at more instinctual and games like nlh or action games such as O8B.

impulse players tend to do better at more stimulating and psychological games like nlh and loose action games like O8B.

Confident dominant types tend to be successful financially aside from poker and probably have good jobs and did well in school.

Timid tentative players may play much worse or display even more of this trait when running badly then when running well. A good run of cards may actually cause them to come out of their shell.

Misanthropes tend to view any show of kindness or consideration by sensitive types as weakness and look for opportunities to exploit such people. For example, they often try to borrow money from someone they consider naive and generally nice. They may take advantage of a persons desire for friendship and socialization by inviting them to a crooked home game or by intending to crash or cheat them at their home game. They consider nice people to be weak, vulnerable, and naive enough to manipulate. Another ploy is to make bad beat deals that they have no intention of keeping if they happen to be in on it. "Hey wanna go partners? If I hit I'll give you 10% if you hit you give me 10%." To them this is instant profit because they have no plans on giving the 10% if they hit and they know the sensitive honest type will most always honor the deal for fear of drawing disfavor from them. They are always looking for some con or angle to cheat the more vulnerable sensitive types. Trying to borrow money is the classic example, although there are many others. Some misanthropes tend to know many angle shots and "dirty tricks" and some are just con men. Some may constantly frequent home games because it allows them more opportunities to cheat, rob, steal, or borrow and go unpunished. Most of them have connections to dope sellers, if they are not dope sellers themselves.

Sensitive types are typically but not always the female spouses of successful players who put in long hours. In order to do more things together, they play poker together, usually the wife is at the lower limit game while the husband grinds out the big (real) money. I agree with the killphil poster who said these sensitive types usually dont last in poker- but here is one instance where they are not really playing for themselves, but rather for different reasons.

Many older men and women in their 70's or older tend to be tentative and timid. Some younger players (18-20some) also tend to be more timid, since they are usually just starting out. Usually the older people are on fixed income and the younger people dont have enough experience to play confidently. This isnt always true, though.

Younger guys who are video game addicts as kids, if they go on to get "hooked" on internet poker, usually fall into the impulsive category. Interestingly, many of these players are known to have ADD. Poker is a stimulant to them. Look for wild shirts, hawaian tiki shirts and bermuda shorts, sandals, suave fashionable items such as thin rimmed glasses, facial hair (shaving everyday is too routine), long hair, a liking for more daring exotic food such as sushi, lots of style, clove cigarettes, maybe a few piercings they got on a whim, retro 80's stuff...

Guys who played a lot of sports as youth but can no longer do so due to their age usually fall into the competitive dominant category. They use poker as a substitute sport for their intense competitive drives. Look for sports related clothing, college and fraternity clothes, baseball hats, larger than average build, short hair cuts, jeans, brand name gym shoes, nylon warm up suits...

Nerdy socially awkward types who excelled very strongly in math and sometimes science usually end up in the rigid category. Look for the pen/pencil holder in the top shirt pocket, the large thick framed usually square glasses (rigid types are too cheap to have lasik), the undershirt under the plain button down, slightly overweight but sometimes pencil thin, the off-brand jeans such as toughskin with goofy cheap ass tennis shoes, kaki pants, plain dress, casino comp clothes (they were free), barber shop hair cut...

it's fascinating to me that these traits seem to develope in clusters, and perhaps are just results out genetic brain predisposition rather than individual traits...

-j

[JJNJustin]

Just to keep this thread going (is it going yet?) I am going to add that misantrhopes typically are delinquent in school and as adults are criminal types or low level workers, but frequently have poor job performance. Their dress is usually very stereotypical: shaved head, tattoos, chains, leather, anything biker related, hard rock or metal t-shirts, black clothing, piercings, but not all misanthropes dress this way.

Competitive dominant types typically are involved in business and/or law, many have college educations and many but not all of them are former fraternity members. This type of dominant player seems more interested in sporting events on the TV's at the casino and becomes highly charged when someone makes an excellent play in the sporting event.

People who work in the healh care field typically have high personal sensitivity traits, especially females.

It is possible for someone to be "neutral" along an axis, and have neither of the extremes as character traits.

I will now give some vague examples from well known players as what I consider to be the best example of each trait (this doesnt necessarily mean anything, though, and probably there are much better examples in your local casino.)

riggid- Greg Raymer, Howard Lederer, Mason Malmuth, Chris Ferguson
impulsive- Danny Negreanu, Scotty Wynn, Stu Ungar, Huck Seed, Layne Flack
dominant- Amir Vahedi, Sammy Farha, Phil Hellmuth, Doyle Brunson
tentative- Dan Harrington, Jennifer Harman
misanthrope- Mike Matusow, Josh Arieh, Patty G, Tony G
sensitive- Annie Duke, Marcel Luske
starred in porno- David Williams

I'm sure there are better examples at your local casino, and some of these may be totally wrong. But David Williams did star in a porno, I think. And eventhough Chris Ferguson doesnt fit the typical dress of a rigid type player, he does have a strong mathematical background and he does wear the same thing most of the time, so eventhough his clothing choice and facial hair is atypical, he is still rigid and very routine about that black cowboy outfit and beard.

-J

p.s. The reason I didnt put David Williams in the "rigid" category is because it is highly unlikely for most players who fit that description and profile to star in a porno movie. (actually I think he is more competitive dominant than he is rigid, although those who saw the movie may beg to differ.)

[AlanBostick]

Setting aside the allegations of plagiarism -- I can't find this material in recent issues of Poker Player, but I haven't looked thoroughly -- it seems pre-eminently clear that this personality breakdown is oversimplification.

Even the most rigid of grinders, for example, has an impulsive player inside her just waiting for the chance to come out and gamble it up, usually right after the supposedly rigid player is tilting. The "misanthrope" is often a quite sensitive person who uses the poker table as an outlet for her savagery and cruelty that otherwise has no place in her life. Confidence can turn into timidity in a heartbeat when a player realizes she is consistently check-raised on the turn and the showdown consistently reveals the check-raiser to have the better hand.

All six personality types are described in negatively judgmental terms. I wonder whether there are people in the world you actually like and respect.

[JJNJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Setting aside the allegations of plagiarism -- I can't find this material in recent issues of Poker Player, but I haven't looked thoroughly -- it seems pre-eminently clear that this personality breakdown is oversimplification.

[/ QUOTE ]

---if you think a more complex personality trait profile would be more useful, feel free to add to the thread, i find this breakdown to be very useful, well-clustered, and easily remembered.

[ QUOTE ]
Even the most rigid of grinders, for example, has an impulsive player inside her just waiting for the chance to come out and gamble it up, usually right after the supposedly rigid player is tilting. The "misanthrope" is often a quite sensitive person who uses the poker table as an outlet for her savagery and cruelty that otherwise has no place in her life. Confidence can turn into timidity in a heartbeat when a player realizes she is consistently check-raised on the turn and the showdown consistently reveals the check-raiser to have the better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

----absolutely

[ QUOTE ]
All six personality types are described in negatively judgmental terms. I wonder whether there are people in the world you actually like and respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

----Not at all. Each of the 6 types have positive and negative characteristics. I'm not trying to make value judgements here, I'm simply trying to point out that certain players have a pattern of behavior that can be strongly stereotypical, possibly dependant on genes, brain neurohormones, and is altogether clustered. Knowing these patterns can help you predetermine your play to take advantage of their patterns and maximize their mistakes while avoiding pitfalls.

Each of the 6 stereotypes have positive and negative aspects, and some can be positive in one way and negative in another way.

For example- grinders can be hard to beat and this is a negative thing, but knowing that can provide you with optimum strategy- dont play against them unless you have a clear edge either mathematically, positionally, or otherwise.

impulsive players can be tricky to play in heads up pots, so avoid playing in heads up pots with them. Multiway protected pots take away alot of their weapons and forces them to show down a hand and play more like a grinder.

dominant players are very aggressive, so utilize this when setting up raises, reraises, and check-raises to your advantage, but avoid limping or calling with weak holdings when a dominant player is to your left.

tentative players are tricky to value bet unless you have the nuts, they will just call with mediocre and monster (non-nut) hands alike. Dont try to bluff them. Their number one flaw is that they check alot when they should be betting and can be slowed down easily with a little aggression, so play weak draws against them like middle pair gut shot 3-flush deals in position. If they raise run like hell unless you have the nuts.

misanthropes- be aware of their intentions, and do alot of checking behind them if you smell a check-raise. Be prepared to do alot of folding in small pots if they bet on the next round. Play meekly against them with good holdings to induce aggression and bluffing. Try not to give free cards out of position. The players who make money against the misanthropes are the tentative types because they give the impression they can be bluffed and are weak, but they call down anyway.

sensitive types- befriend them to a high degree. This will cause them to slow down on their good hands when you are in the pot with them. Play heads up pots with them, they are worst at this as it is confrontational. Be more inclined to lay down against them if they bet as they are unlikely to bluff someone they consider a friend. Reversely, be more inclined to bluff them if they think you would never bet against them unless you "had it".


---it should be added that many players are neutral along all axis and are more complex, and have none of these strong stereotypical traits. Some are chameleon(sp?) like and can play in a certain way because the game dictates they do so. But, I would say most regular middle and small limit poker players have some of these tendacies that you can exploit. High-limit poker players and superstars may be aware of these tendacies and may be trying to lessen them.

It may be useful to try to analyze your own playing tendancies and be aware of how it might affect your game.
For example, my own playing style tends to be:

rigid(-5) vs. impulsive(5) -5 0 5
I'm about a -3
dominant vs. tentative
I'm about a +4
misanthrope vs. sensitive
I'm about a +4

What about you?
-J

[Peter McDermott]

Rigidity vs Impulsivity should surely be two different axes:

Rigidity vs flexibility and
Predictibility vs. impulsivity

I'll grant you that Rigidity and Predictibility look like much the same thing, but their counterparts are surely very different to each other?

[JJNJustin]

excellent observation! that really gives me something to think about.

- j

[JJNJustin]

There are many misanthropes who make the majority of their income thru illegal means such as drug trafficking, lawsuits, etc. Many of these misanthropes have an excess of illegal funds that they can not necessarily transfer into "legal" money lest the IRS become suspicious, since they are usually unemployed.

Many of these types have a tendancy to gamble heavily, on cards, sports, horse racing. On the conscious level, it offers them an opportunity to make more money without working, and on the subconscious level it may be their way of giving a lot of it away, since they didnt work for it anyway and acquired it through mostly illegal means.

This is an idea that revolves around good and bad karma, a subconscious sense of guilt, and the idea that there is fairness in the universe. But I have seen plenty of these types, who typically play looser and take more chances with their money, some who gamble day and night. Either they are trying to give it all back, or the money means much less to them because they did not have to work or struggle to obtain it the way most working folks do.

Conclusion: play with misanthropes.

-J

[Dangeresque]

That would make Ungar a serious Misanthrope, but he was good friends with Jack Strauss, a Sensitive... any thoughts?

[PoorTom]

[ QUOTE ]
a liking for more daring exotic food such as sushi

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. Oh yes, very daring and exotic..

Like most psychological theories going right back to Freud, I've got a strong suspicion that this stuff tells you much more about the person that came up with it than about anyone else. No offense. I just think people are much, much more complex than you're them giving credit for.

The only other comment I'd make is that I'm not convinced I see what use all this personality stuff is, even if it were complete and correct (which I don't think this is).

What matters is how your opponents play, not what they look like, what they eat, etc. Image can easily be manipulated for a start - Chris Ferguson, Amarillo Slim, Doyle Brunson, Sam Farha etc all have talked on this point before. Your own snap judgements about someone's personality are more likely IMHO to cause you to make incorrect assumptions about your opponent's play than they are to give you any special insight. Test them and see how they play and react to that, not all the extraneous static.

Interesting and thought-provoking post though, thanks for all the work.