20-40 flop decision

[thirddan]

hmmmm, so if you call and two other call behind you what are you doing on these turn cards...

2, 8, T, Q, A?

if you are betting what is your response to a raise from limper or from PFR...

thanks...

[brettbrettr]

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2, 8, T?

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Bet, bet, bet?

[gaming_mouse]

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if you could fold a king in the field.

[/ QUOTE ]never.

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Against passive players, I will say it three more times: never, never, never [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[onegymrat]

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Against passive players, I will say it three more times: never, never, never [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]Please don't get me wrong, I agree overall. That's why we label them "calling stations" or "loose passive", because we can count on them to reenforce the label.

But this isn't like "we should always raise preflop with AA", since that is a play that WE control. We can't control what others do, so what I was playfully saying to you is that to say never when it comes to other player's actions would be incorrect. I can say that I would NEVER cold-call a raise preflop with 72o, but I can't say the opponent would NEVER fold for two big bets cold with top pair.

[bernie]

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my main problem with waiting until the turn to do something is that our pair is sooo low...if we think we have the best hand we need to limit the field because pretty much any turn card could kill us if the field is large...if we just call we are allowing 98 or QT or whatever to see a cheap card getting good odds at their likely 6 outer...i think we need to decide on the flop if our hand is worth trying to win this pot, if so we need to raise, if not then we should probably just fold...

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Partially agree. I would raise for reasons you stated. Anyone folding improves your chances. Anyone calling that you can then assess the turn. Just calling you can be in a real guessing game. You'd be hoping to c/r the turn by hoping it gets checked around a 2nd time. Which isn't a bad move if you can pull it off. But then, what are you putting them on when they call the flop bet. So you'd be doing the same thing for a more expensive price. Not to mention, the LAG may very well see that everyone called and check it through.

Donking the turn could also be an idea.

Because of the passivity of the table, and if they all call behind you, you could get odds(with implieds) to spike the 2 outer on the turn + pulling the move stated above.

Personally, I'd c/r the flop.

b

[Fianchetto]

I think calling is the worst of our options, but the flop play may be closer to a fold than a raise here.

If we are going to continue with the hand then I think raising is the best play. Part of the problem though is that our raise is meant to drive out hands like AJ or 88, hands that a decent player would quickly muck when facing two cold on the flop, but if these guys are really too loose/too passive then they may not even fold those hands on the flop. Not to mention that in a 5 way raised pot there is a pretty good chance someone is holding a king.

[The Funky Llama]

what type of hands would these limpers peel this flop with? If its only Ax then calling seems like the play.

If you are ahead of button he usually has Ax so limpers will often have no added outs (they'd have 3 if button has AQ and they have, say, A8 but would be drawing dead to the 2 of you if they had like A3). And you're often behind anyway so protection isn't a huge deal. Additionally, calling allows you to see if any limpers checkraise.

If you're playing with a herd of donkeys who would peel routinely with JT here, then I'd probably take this one to 2town.

Is a group of donkeys even called a herd?

[Six_of_One]

I think the best thing to do is call. Your hand is too good to fold, but raising the flop will probably only fold hands that were going to fold anyway. You can tentatively plan to check-raise a safe turn card, but it depends on the flop action behind you. If everyone else calls the flop, then you're pretty much screwed unless the turn is a 6, because in order for you to win the turn card would have to be safe, it would have to check around to the preflop raiser again, he would have to bet, you raise, and all the limpers -- at least one of whom probably has a King if they all called the flop -- would have to fold. Pretty remote.

If, on the other hand, only like one other guy calls the flop, then I think check-raising a safe turn card has more merit. This assumes you can't put the original raiser on a King or better if he bets the turn, of course, which I gather is the case by your description of him.

If you check-raise the turn and get called, wow, that sucks. Unless the raiser is enough of a retard that he'd call with Ace-high, of course.

[JayKon]

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C/R'ing likely does nothing on any flop in this game and calling to find a comfortable turn card is the best option.

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I'm sorry, but UGG! I find this thread very intresting and educational, but just calling here seems too weak.

[andyfox]

"even a flop c/r would not drive out any ace-highs or pp."

Maybe not. But maybe it will. The problem, of course, is that LMD's hand is vulnerable. Don't loose passives take one off for one small bet on the flop with A-T or Q-J or any backdoor flush, but give them up in the wake of facing two cold?

"With a non-face/ace card, a turn bet by you should clear out the riff-raff and root out five."

The problem is that if he just calls the flop he's likely to get a caller or three behind him. And the large number of players diminishes the chance that button will continue to bet on the turn. While it's certainly possible these types will call with hands that don't include a king or a 5 if LMD raises the flop, it would seem much more likely that he'll have a better view of the strength of their hand(s) if he raises on the flop.

Michael: was the big blind in?