5/10 J9o: Tell me to stop doing this if I should

[Thorv]

I'm torn on the PF raise question. One thing I do know is that I ALWAYS raise that flop. Half the time in blind battles, you may not get credit for a good hand anyway and they'll call to see the turn. My vote's for a raise on the flop.

[MacGuyV]

____,

blind battles aren't about PF equity edges, they're about winning pots when you miss and getting paid off when you hit. I don't know if many people agree, but I'd much rather raise J9 than A5 against an open completer and will go to my grave thinking such.
And before anybody asks - no - this doesn't apply to non-blind battle situations.

[Rico Suave]

Nick:

I don't hate it. I take a more passive line from more aggressive players in spots like these b/c I am perfectly willing for them to continue to bluff or bet their weaker made hand in this small pot. But, vs this guy, I would be more inclined to pop either the flop or the turn as a more passive player is more likely to have a piece and they are usually not folding.

--Rico

[___]

[ QUOTE ]
____,

blind battles aren't about PF equity edges, they're about winning pots when you miss and getting paid off when you hit. I don't know if many people agree, but I'd much rather raise J9 than A5 against an open completer and will go to my grave thinking such.
And before anybody asks - no - this doesn't apply to non-blind battle situations.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like this explanation. Does raising preflop really improve our chances of taking it down when we miss? Loose players love to call down. Couldn't we invest those same two small bets into raising any flop we are bet into on and betting any flop that is checked to us? Or is a typcial villain too likely to either put in 0 bets postflop or continue to a point where we don't want to bluff anymore?

[Rico Suave]

Mcgahee:

[ QUOTE ]
but I'd much rather raise J9 than A5 against an open completer and will go to my grave thinking such.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying, but isn't this very dependent how the sb plays postflop? I mean, if the guy doesn't fold much postflop, then aren't we better off checking with J9o and raising the hand with showdown value?

Well, since you are going to your grave raising J9 rather than A5, I guess the I know the answer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

--Rico

[Nick C]

Yeah, I think you guys are right. Raising the turn is better.

Probably my play in the hand is best versus a habitual bluffer who won't give up until played back at and is betting into a dry board.

And, like I mentioned at the start of my post, I don't know what to make of this Villain's play anymore. He's changed styles since I first encountered him.

In any case, he had Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] this time and called my river bet and MHIG.

Man, he had a lot of outs, even on the turn.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
____,

blind battles aren't about PF equity edges, they're about winning pots when you miss and getting paid off when you hit. I don't know if many people agree, but I'd much rather raise J9 than A5 against an open completer and will go to my grave thinking such.
And before anybody asks - no - this doesn't apply to non-blind battle situations.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like this explanation. Does raising preflop really improve our chances of taking it down when we miss? Loose players love to call down. Couldn't we invest those same two small bets into raising any flop we are bet into on and betting any flop that is checked to us? Or is a typcial villain too likely to either put in 0 bets postflop or continue to a point where we don't want to bluff anymore?

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I'm not crazy about the "raising any flop" idea versus a loose player.

I think it is possible that we have more folding equity if we don't raise preflop, though. Well, I'm pretty sure at least this much is true: We have more folding equity if we get checked to on the flop after checking our option preflop than we do if we get checked to on the flop after we raised preflop. This isn't an entirely fair argument, though; that is, I think it's pretty obviously true, but I'm not sure how much it really means. (Of course we're usually getting checked to if we raise preflop, but we will get bet into if we don't raise with more frequency.)

Versus predictable passive players (not that this Villain was one entirely, anymore), checking preflop does let you see what he wants to do on the flop before investing any additional money. You can fold and get away cheaply if you have jack-high and he bets. So there is that, and I think it's worth something.

Also, for better or worse, sometimes I don't really want to start getting on SB's nerves and have him begin open-raising or complete/re-raising preflop against me when it's folded to him. Sometimes that's what'll happen instead of him just beginning to hand you his 2/5 of a SB preflop.

And, that said, I would have raised if I had, for instance QTo instead, and I probably would have raised JTo as well. So it's not like I hardly ever raise versus a SB open-complete. I just try not to get too carried away with it.

[MAxx]

id usually raise pf here.

if not a flop raise would be pretty decent, but raisin the turn is absolutely mandatory if you haven done anything yet.

[___]

Based on this thread I'm raising more from the BB when the SB open completes and I have a hand without showdown value that is still decent. I am also sometimes doing it with total junk and premium hands. In my obviously insignificant sample size: so far so good. I'm going to try a PT filter after another 10k hands or so and see how it's going then.

[PokerSparky]

[ QUOTE ]
____,

blind battles aren't about PF equity edges, they're about winning pots when you miss and getting paid off when you hit. I don't know if many people agree, but I'd much rather raise J9 than A5 against an open completer and will go to my grave thinking such.
And before anybody asks - no - this doesn't apply to non-blind battle situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put, and I agree with what you say. (Though I'm still raising A5 in this spot as well. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

That being said, blind battles are very read/feel dependent IMO. If a LAG that calls all the way to the river with anything completes in the small blind, raising J9o probably has little value. But against a passive player that you've seen fold to flop bets often completes in the blind, I think raising with almost any two cards preflop is +EV.