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#11
06-14-2006, 02:23 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
I'm happy you brought this up as it was my post about the KJo hand you are referring to. I lost half my stack on the hand but it was established I played it badly. Nice to read peoples thoughts.
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#13
06-14-2006, 02:45 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
This is what bothers me, because I know I fold KJ here more than 50% of the time. Am I missing stealing opportunities? [/ QUOTE ] Yes [ QUOTE ] Does the fact I don't raise KJ here help me when I bet with a real hand? [/ QUOTE ] I think not. If you aren't raising w/ your marginal hands in position against a few limpers when you do get a great hand you aren't going to get as much action because they see you only raise w/ your premiums. [ QUOTE ] I want to raise KJ for the same amount that I raise KK. [/ QUOTE ] Then you need to raise [ QUOTE ] Raising KJ for 4xBB is -EV. [/ QUOTE ] Search, 'The Gigabet Dilemma', raising w/ KJ in position and getting looked up once in a while (as long as you know NOT to go to the felt w/ it) is -EV in the short term, but when you do get QQ+, AQs+ and do the same move it will get +EV (than before) because they realize you raise w/ marginal hands. [ QUOTE ] I want to raise KJ for the same amount that I raise KK. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Therefore, raise KK for 4xBB and fold KJ. [/ QUOTE ] This is contradictory.
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#14
06-14-2006, 03:02 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
short answer = it depends.
long answer = see anthology, and get to love shania.
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#15
06-14-2006, 03:07 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm going to raise with KJ, then I want to raise KJ for the same amount that I raise KK. Therefore, raise KK for 4xBB and fold KJ. [/ QUOTE ] No longer a contraction. [ QUOTE ] Search, 'The Gigabet Dilemma', raising w/ KJ in position and getting looked up once in a while (as long as you know NOT to go to the felt w/ it) is -EV in the short term, but when you do get QQ+, AQs+ and do the same move it will get +EV (than before) because they realize you raise w/ marginal hands. [/ QUOTE ] I'm pretty sure my post has nothing to do with the gigabet dilemna.
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#16
06-14-2006, 03:16 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
In short what you are saying is that small -EV moves now do not make your +EV moves later even more +EV. I contend that this is untrue. If you are only raising w/ prems and your competition are those that pay attn then you will not get as much action from your raises. However, if you are making raises w/ marginal hands, stealing in position and punishing limpers, sometimes showing them down, sometimes just mucking them after the flop, then when you do get your QQ+ hands you will get more action.
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#17
06-14-2006, 03:19 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If I'm going to raise with KJ, then I want to raise KJ for the same amount that I raise KK. Therefore, raise KK for 4xBB and fold KJ. [/ QUOTE ] No longer a contraction. [ QUOTE ] Search, 'The Gigabet Dilemma', raising w/ KJ in position and getting looked up once in a while (as long as you know NOT to go to the felt w/ it) is -EV in the short term, but when you do get QQ+, AQs+ and do the same move it will get +EV (than before) because they realize you raise w/ marginal hands. [/ QUOTE ] I'm pretty sure my post has nothing to do with the gigabet dilemna. [/ QUOTE ]
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#18
06-14-2006, 03:22 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The way I'm thinking about it is if I raise 5xBB after two limps with KJo, then I should also raise 5xBB after two limps with KK. [/ QUOTE ] You aren't? [/ QUOTE ] You mean, I can raise more with my good hands too? Im not trying to be smug... I guess a better question is, why when you raise big, do people know you have a good hand?
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#19
06-14-2006, 03:25 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
[ QUOTE ]
This is what bothers me, because I know I fold KJ here more than 50% of the time. [/ QUOTE ] Why is it raise or fold? What's wrong with limping behind and playing a pot in position? As long as you are good enough to get away from top pair when someone tells you you are beat, you should be able to show a profit limping KJ in this spot, which means folding it is bad. [ QUOTE ] Am I missing stealing opportunities? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, and not just in the way that you think. When I raise here, it isn't because I expect both limpers to fold (though I'm always happy when they do). Especially at lower limits, there are a lot of players who will very predictably and passively limp in, call a raise, and check-fold a lot of flops. Whether of not you hit, you can pick up some nice pots this way. Against the right limpers, I'll raise a LOT less than KJ on the button, and I'm ok with getting called. There are also more opportunities than you think to steal on the button in a multi-way limped pot. [ QUOTE ] Does the fact I don't raise KJ here help me when I bet with a real hand? [/ QUOTE ] Just the opposite. It should help you to get action when you raise with a real hand. [ QUOTE ] I want to raise KJ for the same amount that I raise KK. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, you do. Folding is not how you play KK. What's is your range for making it 4xBB versus limpers on your button? AQ+ and JJ+? [ QUOTE ] Raising KK for 4xBB (after 2 limpers) has considerably higher utility than raising it for 5xBB [/ QUOTE ] Why do you think that? What are the hands that people are limp-calling 4BB's but limp-folding for 5 BB's? When I have KK, I want to raise as much as I possibly can. If everyone is folding their limps to a pot-sized raise, you should be raising them constantly. If people are limp-calling A9, then yeah, you want them to see the flop and go broke with their bad top pair. But I think limpers are more likely to have speculative hands like small pairs and suited connectors, and when you have KK you need to charge them a premium to see a flop with you, since the reverse implied odds you are giving are hefty. In fact, with deep stacks, if you range is AQ+ and JJ+, then a decent player limp-calling 22 is getting the best of you, not the other way around. [ QUOTE ] Raising KJ for 4xBB is -EV. [/ QUOTE ] Why?
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#20
06-14-2006, 03:39 PM
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Re: What to do in late position after limpers (theory)
I do appreciate everyone comments, although I do think some of them underestimate my understanding of some concepts. I'll try to do some actual mathematical modeling so that I can explain my argument better, though it's also entirely possible that the modeling will prove me wrong.
Part of the issue may be just that I don't trust my post-flop skills. When I say that raising KJ for 4xBB is -EV, what I mean is that my smallish raise has a good chance to get called by multiple opponents and I'm not all that comfortable playing KJo in position multiway, even when the opponents haven't shown great strength. I'm definitely skeptical of the theory that says you should open 3xBB plus 1xBB per limper. I'm not sure what this is based on, other than personal experiences, and in my personal experience I've found 3xBB + 0.5xBB to work better. Until I find a strong way one or another, I'm going to consider this an open argument.
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