Starting hands (newbie)

[joewatch]

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If you have a hand like qsts9d8d, be careful. Q high flush tends to lose much of the time in a multiway pot. The value for suited cards lower that k suited is mostly in blocking other people's flush draws.

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Actually, I don't think that is correct. The main value in suited cards is when you are tied for the nuts, but have a redraw to a better hand (in this case, a Q high or 9 high flush). That's when you get to win a big pot.

[Cooker]

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If you have a hand like qsts9d8d, be careful. Q high flush tends to lose much of the time in a multiway pot. The value for suited cards lower that k suited is mostly in blocking other people's flush draws.

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Actually, I don't think that is correct. The main value in suited cards is when you are tied for the nuts, but have a redraw to a better hand (in this case, a Q high or 9 high flush). That's when you get to win a big pot.

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This may happen sometimes, but usually at the lower limits, you raise and then still get called by the naked better flush draw and the guy with the set and end up a dog going all in 4 way with 15-20% equity.

From an equity point of view, the set and naked nut flush draw are quite correct to get all in on a flop against 2 nut straights, because each will have very near 30% equity. At higher limits where there is some chance a higher naked flush draw may fold (and every suited Ace might not even get played) then this is certainly the value of suited cards.

[RickyG]

you're right... having suited cards without the suited ace is stupid.

[Cooker]

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you're right... having suited cards without the suited ace is stupid.

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I never said anything like that. I hope you are better at Omaha than reading comprehension. I am going to assume you are being sarcastic.

I am trying to get at the point that in multiway pots, which you will usually be playing at the lower limits, no one is going to fold a flopped set or a flopped nut flush draw. If the action stays multway, the FD and set will be correct to get all in on the flop while the 2 straights will be taking the worst of it and will usually drive the action. In this case you wouldn't want to start putting a lot of money in until a safe turn where you may be able to get the naked higher FD and the set to fold or draw with incorrect odds. If the drawing hands fold, you will then have your freeroll, and if they do not, they will be paying too much. If you have it all in on the flop you are taking the worst of it. Suitedness always adds value, but getting the value is not always clear cut.

[RoundTower]

OK so we've learnt that having QJT9 double suited is probably better than getting 4 random cards, but not as good as getting QJT9 and two suited aces.

[Troll_Inc]

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OK so we've learnt that having QJT9 double suited is probably better than getting 4 random cards

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doesn't it really depend on what the flop is?

[redsoxsalty]

Cbloom,

I'm in a similar boat. I've played profitable NL hold 'em for two years now, but just last week become enamored with PLO because of the nuances of post-flop play (any donk can move all-in preflop in hold 'em). I've been playing $25 and $50 at Stars (and occasionally party), and find the competition very, very soft. I plan on perfecting some tactics and then moving up the higher limits, which seem to have much better players.

So, if you're playing low limit PLO, you should be looking for any four cards that make a creative hand. My general cutoff for playing with a hand is that I want to have at least 3 of my cards work together in some way (Js, Th, 9s, x, for example) OR have cards that are interchangable based on the situation (Ac, Ad, 2c, 2d). If there's a raise in front or I'm in an early or early/middle position, I'll tighten up my hand selection standards a little bit. I'd say I play about 30% of hands from early position and 45% from middle position. However, from the cutoff or the blinds, I'll play more like 75% of hands and trust my postflop insticts to get away from any bad situations. In early or middle position, for example, I'd throw away gappers, most mid-low pocket pairs (if they don't have any straight draws), and most suited hands under a King. I will generally play these hands from the cutoff or small blind if there's no raise in front. And...

...since almost no one raises at the low limits, a raise usually telegraphs JJxx+ from most players. You'd be very suprised to see how many players raise the pot with something like Ac, Ah, 4s, 8d. I find that those players are very active on the flop, but don't bet the turn or river if they get called. You can usually get these players to get it all-in on the flop with a reraise, even if it looks clear to you that they can see you've flopped a flush or straight. Trust me, they don't see it.

I'll be curious to know how you do. My guess is that above-average hold 'em players can fleece most of the players at the lower limits.

p.s. I think I'm going to start posting around here more. I've been reading sans contributions for far too long.

[RickyG]

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you're right... having suited cards without the suited ace is stupid.

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I never said anything like that.

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[Having a freeroll to the same straight] may happen sometimes , but usually at the lower limits, you raise and then still get called by the naked better flush draw and the guy with the set and end up a dog going all in 4 way with 15-20% equity.

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Emphasis mine

You seem to imply that having a freeroll versus the same made straight is less common that being up against a set and the nut flush-draw (when you have a straight) and thus the value of non-ace-suitedness is diminished. In fact, you state that you have =< even money EV in these hands.

This suggests that you either believe non-Ace suitedness is practically worthless and that you have a poor understanding of common situations in omaha. Please do not criticize my reading comprehension when your writing demonstrates lack of knowledge, and an inability to clearly state what you mean.

Edited because it's obvious my sarcasm wasn't clear.

[Cooker]

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you're right... having suited cards without the suited ace is stupid.

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I never said anything like that. I hope you are better at Omaha than reading comprehension. I am going to assume you are being sarcastic.

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I was not being sarcastic.

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I think suited cards always have some value, but in multiway pots in games where almost every suited A and pocket pair is played flopping a straight with a flush draw isn't always something to go crazy over.

[greatwhite]

Almost every hand is a starting hand in PLO. Just stay away from hands that don't work well together like K832 or Q722. Look for hands with good combinations. KJ87 is a good hand. You can use you KJ, J8, J7, or 87. Thats 4 possible good combinations. Plus you can catch flops like T96 and freeroll people. Your high pairs, AA-TT are usually playable and most hands with a suited ace should usually be played. Double suited cards work well and add backdoor potential as well.