Defending a late position raise (LO8)

[Buzz]

mrrekrab - I live in Los Angeles. The closest casino to my home is Hollywood Park casino. The last two times I played there (Friday and Saturday) there were a couple of full tables of $4/$8/kill and a couple of full tables of $3/$6/kill. I played in both of those games. There was a $10/$20 sign-up list, but nobody had signed up. There is no $75/$150 Omaha-8 game at Hollywood Park casino. There's nothing higher than $4/$8/kill.

I might drive down and play for a few hours this evening, and if I do, I fully expect there to be a $3/6/kill game with at least one full table plus a waiting list and also a $4/8/kill game with at least one full table plus a waiting list. If I drove over to the Bike or Commerce or Hawaiian Gardens, one or more of those places might have a $6/$12 game and/or possibly a $2/$4/kill game in addition to a $3/$6/kill and/or $4/$8/kill game. There are a few other poker casinos in the L.A. area, Hustler, Normandy, and Crystal Park (now called Crystal?) come to mind. Maybe they have Omaha-8 games too - but if they do, I imagine they're the same limit as the other places. A couple of times I've played in $10/$20 games, but somehow those games don't last long, maybe an evening or two.

And that's about it, so far as I know. Those are all the Omaha-8 limits I expect to see. Years ago there was a mixed $75/$100 game at Hollywood Park, with some Omaha-8 and some Texas hold 'em but I don't think there is still such a game.

From what I have seen, the game is played differently at higher limits. There's more pre-flop raising at higher limits, and there's less seeing the flop with mediocre starting hands. In other words, higher limit Omaha-8 games are much tighter and much more aggressive. (Why would I want to play in a game like that????) Maybe those higher limit games break because nobody else wants to play in tight/aggressive Omaha-8 games either.

I suppose one can play very tightly in a lower limit Omaha-8 game too, but I don't think playing a very tight style is the optimum way to play in a loose game. When most of your opponents usually see the flop for a single bet, if you know what you're doing, you can relax your starting hand standards. You can't take advantage of an opponent's loose play if you're not in the hand.

Hard to fault playing aggressively. But raising before the flop can back-fire.

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You must be one of the few good players that do not raise in late position.

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Rightly or wrongly, I don't generally raise much before the flop. I do when I think it is to my advantage. But you make your money in a typical game by getting opponents to contribute when the limits double and you have a winning hand.

Some (stupid) opponents probably feel pot committed if they call a pre-flop raise, but most don't. I think that's more a pot limit thing than a limit thing - at least in my experience.

Mostly I use pre-flop raises to intimidate, and since I mostly limp, when I do raise, the raise does have an intimidation effect on some opponents. If sitting behind a targeted opponent, I might raise to keep good players sitting behind me out of the pot. The situation has to be such than the intimidation raise will probably work.

You telegraph your cards when you pre-flop raise with A2XY in late position. Even if you raise in late position with various other hands, your good opponents will tentatively put you on A2XY when you pre-flop raise in late position.

What about raising with A34X in late position? Well... that's at least somewhat deceptive, but about half the time you're going to be up against an opponent who holds A2XY. And your strong opponents will realize you might also have pre-flop raised with A34X.

With some opponents who raise before the flop, you can take it to the bank that they hold A2XY. God bless them.

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I've witnessed many of todays top players in o8b and every one of them in limits from 75-150 and up would not even hesitate to raise with a2

[/ QUOTE ]Really? Who are these top o8b players? How do you get to watch them play in 75-150 ring games?

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granted most of them would have an ace or high ccards with it or a small flush backup.

[/ QUOTE ]The other cards in the hand make a big difference, in my humble opinion.

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I guess u don't believe in raising before the flop in this game , to trap on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]I do sometimes raise before the flop, and there is a consideration of the cards I hold involved in the decision to raise or not - but mostly when I raise before the flop, rightly or wrongly, it has to do more with what I think the effect will be on an opponent than on getting more money in the pot.

What does "to trap on the flop" mean? (I can imagine some meanings for it, but it's an unfamiliar phrase to me and maybe it has special meaning to you).

Buzz

[EffenDolts]

I seldom try to steal with high-only hands; there are too many flops where I don't know how to proceed. The BB could easily have good equity both ways on a lot of flops, and I won't find out until I have invested a lot of chips.

If villain is a loose raiser, he will be holding a decent one-way low hand a lot of the time. I will call with high-only hands and play them aggressively on high flops.

The main thing I try to keep in mind with the other hands is to get away quickly if I don't flop well. After all, the main reason to call is because of the great pot odds to flop well, and the great implied odds if I do flop well. This means I fold to a lot of continuation bets where villain has missed the flop, too. It is just too easy to be dominated in these situations, and you will seldom be in a situation where you can drive the turn and river betting.

If you are too predictable and passive postflop, you need a lot more to call. If villain can easily figure out where he stands postflop, you won't have the implied odds you need to call preflop with some of the borderline hands.

IMHO, nothing does more to prevent stealing than to trap villain once and a while and hit him with a CR on the turn. He will remember this more than he will remember how often you fold to a preflp raise.

Effen

[Scott Y.]

Wow - wide range of answers here.

First, for our B&M heroes I should clarify the state of these limit online games that many of us play in. A lot of them are tight-aggressive, or at least semi-loose aggressive. Preflop 3-bets and caps between just 2-4 opponents are common, stealing opportunities occur all the time, and many pots are contested shorthanded. The open-raiser I described is pretty close to what a tough semi-loose/aggressive player's opening range looks like. Depending on their style, the typical good player raises between 30% to 50% (or more) of their hands in this spot. Postflop, they will attempt to maximize their initiative + positional advantage by reading hands and forcing out-of-position opponents to make tough decisions on bad boards.

So.

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1) What sort of hands do you defend, which would you insta-muck, and how often do you bluff? If you bluff, when, and do you typically check-raise, donkbet, or float. Do you ever rebluff?

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I'll play all of the hands my opponent opens with. Sometimes I will play a high dangler hand if the suits are nice, like KQJ6, but I prefer the SB tags along and tend to play these hands more often vs. villains who will bluff and occasionally rebluff high boards w/ backdoor lows and stuff. Connected + semi-connected low cards are pretty good also with suits. I don't think anything short of baby pairs and trips are worth an insta-muck - the pot odds are ~always there, so it depends on your postflop playing edge (if any), comfort level, and metagame. I suspect there are tons and tons of marginally-profitable BB defense hands for a good player heads-up and OOP.

Bluffing is important. Pure bluffing is sometimes appropriate, but various forms of semi-bluffs are more the norm IMO. I don't use a check-raise bluff all that often unless the board is exactly 3 high cards - and sometimes not even then. It becomes very hard to continue (and win without a showdown - your goal) with something like a weak flush draw when your c/r is called or 3-bet, so if I do it I'd like very few outs on the board. Even a backdoor low draw is reason enough for any villain to make a loose flop call and re-evaluate.

Leading into the raiser on high boards is usually better (a lead on a 2-low board is intrinsically stronger and should be avoided as a bluff/semi-bluff in most spots IMO). Some villains will auto-raise your "donkbet" on high boards and few will fold. So it's important to have a feel for these spots and throw in a 3rd flop bet sometimes, or lead a turn low card or a scare card, etc. I don't know how to break this down systematically.

And floating, where you call on the flop with any 4 cards banking on a reaching a +EV bluffing opportunity later. Many good players do this (it's one of those ways they "run over" their less skilled opponents) on 2-high boards, planning to bet most low cards (and bluff river high cards) and re-evaluate a high turn (the play can be check-call + bet any river, check-raise turn, or bet/fold turn).

I prefer leading into raisers + floating raisers.

[Phat Mack]

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I see stealing, and I sometimes steal myself, but only at certain stages in tournaments. It’s just not a ring game thing. (Doesn’t mean some fool won’t try it, I suppose).

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We play in different places, but I see stealing even in good games in certain circumstances: A new kid, usually a young hold 'em player, sits down at the table, sees all the multi-calling before the flop, and decides that a little aggression will go a long way; The games slows down temporarily because the instigator has gone for a smoke, or nobody is catching cards; It's folded to me in late position, and I know the blinds are attracted to O8 for its big pots, and don't want to be bothered playing me heads up for a small one.

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That makes good sense. But unless you have the nuts, how do you know when an opponent makes a foolish bet?

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You don't really need the nuts, just a better hand. Of course all this is contingent on being a good reader, or having an opponent who is easy to read.

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You probably do better when your opponents make foolish calls than when they make “foolish” bets and raises. A bet or raise that knocks you out of a pot you otherwise would have won is not to your advantage, even if it was “foolish.”

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Nah. A foolish call = 1 bet. A foolish bet/raise = 2 bets. 2 bets > 1 bet. I just don't buy the idea that you have to be a rock to detect and take advantage of foolishness.

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So if Hero holds A28T and the board is 239JQ, Hero wins unless an opponent holds TKXY. With two opponents, it’s about twice as likely one of them has TKXY as with one opponent, but even with two opponents, there’s still less than a ten per cent chance that an opponent holds TKXY. With two opponents, Hero’s non-nut straight figures to win over 90% of the time. It’s not the over 95% it would be with only one opponent, but it’s still over 90%.

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Yes but what are the chances A28Q wins versus 1 or 2 opponents?

[TxRedMan]

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Aggressive late position player (say MP3-OTB) open-raises, folded to you in the BB. Let's make his opening range any AA/A2/A3x, top 75% of A4, top 30% A5, any 4 broadway, and some miscellaneous hands like 24KQ, QQ43, + 7654ds.

1) What sort of hands do you defend, which would you insta-muck, and how often do you bluff? If you bluff, when, and do you typically check-raise, donkbet, or float. Do you ever rebluff?

2)How does your play change if the SB (semi-loose) comes along too? Specifically, do you loosen up or tighten up (or both) preflop, and do you bluff less/more/the same postflop?

We've never really discussed this, but it's really important. Let's talk. Limit only pls.

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That's a very very wide range of hands to put him on, IMO.

If you were confident that he's capable of opening with KQ24 on occasion as well as 4567, then i'm three betting a lot more hands than I normally would.


Forgive me for saying this, but this question almost needs to be broken down into different questions.


I.E., how often do I bluff/ rebluff/ float totally depends on the board.

I can say that I'm instamucking pure crap, and leaning towards calling with almost all hands with an ace if his range is really this wide.


I'm more prone to donk good flops for my hand as a raise is usual from an agg. player on the flop in position.

When the SB calls i'm more apt to just call w/ stronger hands.

[grandgnu]

Buzz, I've noticed the same effect at Foxwoods in Connecticut.

They used to run a 5/10 with a full kill, but it was mostly tighter-nitty old people who would announce "he's got Aces" whenever someone raised in EP (and of course, the useless dealers and floor did nothing to shut them up)

They've since phased that out with the new poker room, and I could find only one Omaha hi/lo game running. A 4/8 with a half-kill.

But it's a friggin' gold mine. 5-7 players to the flop, idiots calling raises with 3/9/10/10 and other junk, it was great.

I was fortunate to catch A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and raise during a kill pot and get re-raised and then cap it and get heads-up against some guy. Made my nut flush on the river and scooped a massive pot (with him stating "I didn't think he had Aces") when he lost, heh heh.

[Buzz]

Hi Mack - As you say, we play in different places. Stealing is virtually non existent in the ring games in which I play. Perhaps some pre-flop raises are attempts to steal. But if they are, they simply don’t work. In a typical four hour ring game playing session I won’t see someone get away with stealing someone else’s blind even once. I’m not exaggerating. The ring games in which I have played in the past two weeks are $3/$6/kill and $4/$8/kill games in Los Angeles County and in Tucson Arizona. I was at Hawaiian Gardens yesterday, and played for a while in a $3/$6/kill game. Hawaiian Gardens also had a $2/$4/kill game going and a $6/$12/kill game seemed to be sputtering.
I plan to play for a while tonight at Hollywood Park where I expect to find a $3/$6/kill game and a $4/$8/kill game. There will probably be more than just two tables of Omaha-8 going and there will probably be a longish waiting list for each game. That seems to be the norm.
I see pre-flop raises, and I occasionally make a pre-flop raise myself, but I never, or at least hardly ever, see a pre-flop raise succeed in stealing the blinds. I don’t recall seeing a steal succeed, except in the late stages of a tournament, any time during the past two weeks. I don’t expect to see a steal succeed tonight.
I probably could find a ring game tight enough such that stealing was possible, but why on earth would I want to play in a rock garden?
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That makes good sense. But unless you have the nuts, how do you know when an opponent makes a foolish bet?

You don't really need the nuts, just a better hand. Of course all this is contingent on being a good reader, or having an opponent who is easy to read.

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Yes, I see that. All the same, it’s harder to play a non-nut hand when an opponent comes on like gangbusters. If you never get bluffed out of a hand, you’re playing like a calling station. If you often get bluffed out of a hand, you’re often getting out-played.
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You probably do better when your opponents make foolish calls than when they make “foolish” bets and raises. A bet or raise that knocks you out of a pot you otherwise would have won is not to your advantage, even if it was “foolish.”

Nah. A foolish call = 1 bet. A foolish bet/raise = 2 bets. 2 bets > 1 bet. I just don't buy the idea that you have to be a rock to detect and take advantage of foolishness.

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I agree you don’t have to be a rock to detect or take advantage of foolishness. But when the nuts are very likely, if I don’t have the nuts or even the second nuts myself, and when someone bets or raises as though having the nuts – that bet or raise gets some respect from me. It’s harder for me (and I think anyone) to play with that bet or raise than without it.
I like “action” players in the game, but it’s harder to play non-nut hands against them. It doesn’t come down to a one-on-one situation with me against the action player very often. I’d like that, but it simply doesn’t often happen that way. It’s not always possible or feasible to raise or play so as to isolate. In general, with other strong players at the table, it’s not easy to get one-on-one with the action player. And when you don’t, you still have to worry about those other, more solid, players clobbering you.
O.K. Sure. So you “play good poker.” What I’m saying is it’s harder to play good poker when you’re faced with a bet or raise than otherwise.
Some damned fool bets and the next player, a solid player, raises, and it can be tough to call the double bet. Or a solid player bets and the damned fool raises, and it also can be tough to call the double bet. Or it can be tough to call a single bet from a solid player with the damned fool yet to act behind you.
Again, sure, you “play good poker.” But it can be harder to play well with a fool in the game than otherwise, because you still have to worry about someone who is not a fool. And even a fool can have a winning hand.
More likely in my games, the bet or raise is coming from someone who knows the game well, and from someone who has been observing me (just as I’ve been observing him/her). The bet or raise by itself might seem “foolish” but if it causes me to fold a hand that otherwise would have won part or all of the pot, it wasn’t really foolish after all. Yeah, if I stay in the hand and win, I’ll win two bets instead of one (or four bets instead of two when I’m up against two opponents) – but I lose twice as much when I lose, or maybe more than twice as much, since with two opponents, there may be the chance of a re-raise after I call. Bottom line: Unless you’re a rock with the nuts, it’s tougher to play an aggressive opponent than a passive one.
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So if Hero holds A28T and the board is 239JQ, Hero wins unless an opponent holds TKXY. With two opponents, it’s about twice as likely one of them has TKXY as with one opponent, but even with two opponents, there’s still less than a ten per cent chance that an opponent holds TKXY. With two opponents, Hero’s non-nut straight figures to win over 90% of the time. It’s not the over 95% it would be with only one opponent, but it’s still over 90%.

Yes but what are the chances A28Q wins versus 1 or 2 opponents?

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You had written that your feeling was “3-handed play requires substantially better hands than 2-handed play.” To compare three handed to two handed, I chose a situation where Hero had the 2nd nut straight rather than the nut straight.
If we stick to that situation, when Hero has A28Q, the board would be 239TJ, and then I think A28Q wins roughly 95% against one opponent and roughly 90% against two opponents. Sure Hero is more likely to win against only one opponent than against two, but only about 5% more likely, not twice as likely. Even though two villains are twice as likely to win as one, Hero isn’t twice as likely to win against one villain as against two. (Hero is twice as likely to lose against two, but twice a pittance is a pittance).
If you want to change the situation so that Hero has two pairs, and not even the best two pairs, then Hero is (obviously) not as likely to win as with the second nut straight. When the board on the river is 239JQ, A28Q wins roughly 70% against one opponent and roughly 47% against two opponents. In either case, although two straights are possible, as are trips or various other higher two pairs, Hero’s two pairs, queens over deuces, wins more than either of two random hands, but Hero is an underdog to two opponents. However, since Hero wins twice as much when he wins against two opponents than against only one, Hero should prefer two opponents, because he doesn’t win half as often even though he wins less often.
I still don’t see how 3-handed play requires substantially better hands than 2-handed play. I don’t think it does. Even when you give Hero two crummy pairs on the river, although Hero wins more frequently against only one opponent, Hero profits more with two opponents. If Hero plays that crummy two pairs all day against two opponents, he should show more of a tidy profit at the end of the day than against only one opponent.
Buzz

[Buzz]

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They used to run a 5/10 with a full kill, but it was mostly tighter-nitty old people

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Gnu - You're describing a typical afternoon rock garden. Loose play is punished. The same people play every day and they mostly know how the other regulars play. On any given deal, one or two of them (or maybe more) will be likely to have a decent hand and will play, but the rest fold before the flop. The ones who play can be pretty cagey. You generally need a good starting hand yourself. And then you may end up one-on-one with roughly a fifty/fifty chance of winning. There's just not much, if any, loose money in the game. You can beat the game and eke out a small profit by playing very tightly and aggressively - but ugh.

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(and of course, the useless dealers and floor did nothing to shut them up)

[/ QUOTE ]Casinos are self serving. Rulings are made in the best interests of the casino. The regulars are the customers who keep those games going for the casino. Maybe some of them are good tippers. All you can hope for is an honest dealer. That's just the way it is, always was, and always will be. Still, we should appreciate that there are casinos that provide a relatively safe place for us to play poker.

On-line seems safer in one way but not so safe in another way. (It would be very easy for one player to collude with another. For example, if confederates each know what cards their partner had been dealt, that would be a huge advantage, and not difficult at all to communicate to a confederate).

Buzz

[grandgnu]

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For example, if confederates each know what cards their partner had been dealt, that would be a huge advantage, and not difficult at all to communicate to a confederate).

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Listen buddy, the North won, get over it! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[lemonPeel]

Buzz,

I noticed that you play in the same games I usually play in. The low limit los angeles games, but I tend to just sit there and play tight. You mention this is not the optimal strategy in these games. If this is the case, what other hands are you playing in addition to A2XX A3xx, 4 high cards Ten or higher etc. And 3 high cards with one of them paired. I've seen how loose ppeople play, but surely calling for one bet with 5547 one suit can't really be an optimal way of playing these games? And I usually play in the hawaiian gardens 6/12 and 3/6 kill games.