T8s, I speculate

[ILOVEPOKER929]

Fold preflop, check/3bet the flop, check-call the turn, call the river. Thats how I usually play this hand.

[Redd]

Yeah dude, you gotta dump this for 2 more pf. Would you ever CC this on the button after a LAG pfrs?

I like damaniac's arugment for capping the river, and I'd expect you to be able to do it for value anyways.

I don't understand what's with all the check-3bettors on the flop. Are you hoping to fold out BB?

[GetThere1Time]

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I don't understand what's with all the check-3bettors on the flop. Are you hoping to fold out BB?

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The BB isn't folding. That's the point. Likely neither will MP after he's peeled for one. With three other players in our pot equity is pretty good on the flop.

[Redd]

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I don't understand what's with all the check-3bettors on the flop. Are you hoping to fold out BB?

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The BB isn't folding. That's the point. Likely neither will MP after he's peeled for one. With three other players in our pot equity is pretty good on the flop.

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But there's a good chance that BB will keep doing the betting for us and we can save our check-raise for when we hit.

[GetThere1Time]

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I don't understand what's with all the check-3bettors on the flop. Are you hoping to fold out BB?

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The BB isn't folding. That's the point. Likely neither will MP after he's peeled for one. With three other players in our pot equity is pretty good on the flop.

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But there's a good chance that BB will keep doing the betting for us and we can save our check-raise for when we hit.

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But if the button takes the lead and then we c/r, we face the other two players with 2 cold so we might end up having to lead anyway. And maybe I'm misapplying the concept but by bloating the pot while our equity is favorable we make however many bets we have to call on the turn greater EV than if the pot was smaller. So pushing our equity edge on the flop gives us an advantage on both streets.

[Redd]

Meh, OOP flush draw situations like these where we can't protect is a place where I generally go against the 2+2 grain.

I can see a definite advantage for going for a free card if we're IP, clearing up outs when possible, or metagame considerations when our opponents are thinking enough to put us on a hand. Especially when we're paying very little or even making money off of such fringe benefits.

However, in situations like this (namely, OOP with no TP outs against idiots), we don't get any of these bonuses. We're really just going for pure value.

Now when we pump aggressively on the flop, we make a little under half a SB off of every bet that goes in. If we make our hand and push the turn/river, we make almost a full BB off of every bet that goes in, a 4-fold increase. Against the type of opponents I'm playing against, I usually shut down chances at future action by playing the flop hard, and it seems like there's alot more potential value in waiting until we hit.

[GetThere1Time]

We can have our cake and eat it too though, right?

Once hero calls 2 ice cold on the flop even morons might figure out he has a fd. We can't always guarantee a bet from the BB in a multiway pot when the FD completes so trying to c/r might be risky. Sometimes the BB will be driving the hand and wont bet when our hand completes. Sometimes the button'll bet and we'll have to c/r out the BB. I'd probably lead when I complete the hand anyway so why not get our equity in while we can instead of going for 2 bets on a later street that might not work anyway?

[Redd]

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Once hero calls 2 ice cold on the flop even morons might figure out he has a fd.

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Then I see a looooot of flush draws. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I don't think these guys are thinking enough to put us on a FD, especially since there have already been other cold-callers in the hand.

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We can't always guarantee a bet from the BB in a multiway pot when the FD completes so trying to c/r might be risky. Sometimes the BB will be driving the hand and wont bet when our hand completes. Sometimes the button'll bet and we'll have to c/r out the BB. I'd probably lead when I complete the hand anyway so why not get our equity in while we can instead of going for 2 bets on a later street that might not work anyway?

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My post was referring more to the general case but with 2 aggressors and 3 other people in the pot, I'm pretty comfortable with a bet going in on the turn/river from someone here in particular. Since a turn c/r makes us 8 times as much per caller as a flop 3-bet, we have a pretty big margin of error for whiffing too.

One thing about your previous post I wanted to address:
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And maybe I'm misapplying the concept but by bloating the pot while our equity is favorable we make however many bets we have to call on the turn greater EV than if the pot was smaller. So pushing our equity edge on the flop gives us an advantage on both streets.

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Back in the HUSH days Tstone made a great post about a similar situation. He basically did th emath and found that if you take out implied odds and free cards and everything, if you put in a +EV flop raise with a strong draw and it gives you odds to justify calling the turn, the overall flop/turn play is -EV compared to peeling flop and folding turn.
Obviously, we're basically calling the turn no matter what in this monster pot, but I expect one can generalize the concept of putting more flop bets in to make the turn calls more +EV to be invalid.

[GetThere1Time]

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Then I see a looooot of flush draws. I don't think these guys are thinking enough to put us on a FD, especially since there have already been other cold-callers in the hand.

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Well then by the same logic our hand is even more disguised if we c/3-bet the flop and could possibly generate more action later in the hand when we do complete it.

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Since a turn c/r makes us 8 times as much per caller as a flop 3-bet, we have a pretty big margin of error for whiffing too.

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Sure it might make us 8x as much but its not like we lose ALL that value. We're still leading and making bets when we make our hand.

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ack in the HUSH days Tstone made a great post about a similar situation. He basically did th emath and found that if you take out implied odds and free cards and everything, if you put in a +EV flop raise with a strong draw and it gives you odds to justify calling the turn, the overall flop/turn play is -EV compared to peeling flop and folding turn.
Obviously, we're basically calling the turn no matter what in this monster pot, but I expect one can generalize the concept of putting more flop bets in to make the turn calls more +EV to be invalid.

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Since you brought it up I'll let you dig up the link to the post [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I couldn't see us folding a draw this big no matter what but I'm not saying we bloat the pot for the express purpose of giving turn calls greater EV. Obviously jamming the flop with a gutshot or something just to get correct odds on the turn is bad poker. I'm just saying that it's an added bonus that we get from pushing our already large flop equity edge.




All in all, I don't really think it makes a gigantic difference. The EV lost/gained from the two lines is probably neglegible. My way: you push small flop equity, gain a little more EV on the turn, and don't make up as much when you hit. Your way: you pass up on a pushing flop equity and a little increased turn EV to make it up when we make our hand. I'm not sure that one clearly has the advantage over the other but if you think so I'm willing to listen.

[Redd]

Linky

It's a really good discussion, but TStone's post about 10 in or so is the most important part IMO.

I think it comes down to the Villains we're playing against. If we're playing against 5 maniacs that will cap every street with us when we hit, regardless of the flop action, then yeah, let's fire 'er up. But the opponents that I generally play against will see the check-3bet, [censored] themselves, and go into c/c mode when we could have gotten a raise in on the turn. These guys would generally keep betting if they were the aggressor on the previous street too, though. So while we might whiff occasionally, it's my opinion that we get so much more +EV in with a turn or river c/r that it's generally worth the wait against LPs. I do think that I'm against the majority of 2ers here tho.