why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL

[MrWizard]

There are plently of successful players that limp a lot. Poker is situational, and thats the bottom line. Adjust to the table and limp when it makes sense, don't when it doesn't.

[amoeba]

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raising>limping

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raising > limping when the amount of money you win from people folding or paying you off on your big hands- the extra amount you now put in to raise/continue your bluff is > than the amount of money you would have won normally.

thats all it is.

[KRANTZ]

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I think raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's (whether perceived or real).

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i really like this, this is probably the best way to look at it

[KRANTZ]

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There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

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maybe, but they are not beating HSNL, and certainly not winning as much as they could at MSNL long-term, unless they're playing a very skilled, unorthodox postflop style.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

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maybe, but they are not beating HSNL, and certainly not winning as much as they could at MSNL long-term, unless they're playing a very skilled, unorthodox postflop style.

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part of this might be that at HSNL, you just won't see say 3 guys limp in from EP that often, and thus the situations in which limping is preferred over raising is just not there due to the players involved.

you take a HSNL player that raises very often and adjusts well and ask him to play NL200 and he might find that its more profitable to raise less often preflop.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's (whether perceived or real).

[/ QUOTE ]

i really like this, this is probably the best way to look at it

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that part I can definatley agree with.

[GHAND]

agreed, very nice post.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
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There are plently of successful players that limp a lot.

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maybe, but they are not beating HSNL...

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What is HSNL? Is 10/20 HSNL? At 10/20 there are many players who limp a lot and win. For example, FSUPlayer (Old Screen Name Howard_Roark) was 31/14 for 5-6 handed in my old database and he is a 3 ptbb/100 winner over his last 200,000 hands.

I rarely open limp, but I definitely overlimp fairly often.

[cts]

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part of this might be that at HSNL, you just won't see say 3 guys limp in from EP that often

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lol you'd be surprised.

Good post jkrantz. I remember in someone's stats post a few days ago several people advocated a 1:1 VPIP:PFR ratio. I didn't say anything, but thought to myself that they were crazy. I think playing something like 25/12 is far too passive preflop. Everyone has brought up good reasons for raising preflop, some of the most important I think are
<ul type="square">[*]people go broke with more hands in raised pots [*]raising a wide range is a way to magnify our own advantage in hand reading ability over villain's [*]When you raise preflop, you're introducing another layer to the game: c-betting with air, double barrel-ing, the overvalueing of hands by your opponent, bluffing from your opponent, etc.[*]you gain initiative and set up +EV postflop situations due to fold equity, which makes up for the relative weakness of the hand [/list]and best of all
<ul type="square">[*]raising&gt;limping[/list]

[AJFenix]

The absurd setup situations being presented obviously don't do much justice as far as illustrating the arguements between raising and limping. Those situations happen so infrequently that even if there is some value gained from limping a hand in a situation where you may get a weaker hand to come along and flop a 2nd best hand like that, raising will generally still make you more money in the long run because the majority of situations wont be setups like that, and you will be gaining $ from the initiative and subsequent fold equity / +EV situations created by raising, whereas by limping you are passing up on that. That being said, table dynamics could certainly sway a raise to a limp, especially (but certainly not exclusively) due to stack sizes present.

JKrantz is correct in bringing up the fact that by raising, you knock out certain hands out of their ranges, though. It is one benefit of raising and certainly needs to be mentioned. It is especially true with hands such as suited connectors. You really cant be too confident in the strength of your hand when you get a lot of action when the flush completes in a multiway limped pot and you are holding two rags of that suit. When you raise and eliminate a wide range of suited hands above yours, and are playing against fewer people with far thinner / more defined ranges, your situations become much clearer.