10-20 QQ vs. UTG limp rr - Page 2

#1 10-22-2007, 06:12 AM

I dont think you can call PF and fold on this flop. If you called, it is because you think he has enough other hands besides AA/KK to make it profitable and I don't think the flop bet changes any of that, especially if he thinks you might lay down QQ/JJ to the bet. With AA or KK he probably bets smaller.
If you can fold somewhere, its PF not on the flop.

ikestoys · #2 10-22-2007, 11:03 AM

I dunno about your read in live games, but if were going to fold this flop, then we should fold pre. And i'm not folding pre

AcidKnight · #3 10-22-2007, 12:36 PM

If it's Jay, skinny white guy, shaved head and black emo glases, then this is not JJ, like ever. He probably has AKhh, AA, KK or some random hand like JTss that nailed the flop. I've never seen him overbet like this before either and we've played quite a bit together.

LAgambol · #4 10-22-2007, 02:28 PM

i was thinking it was the same guy, at worst he has AKhh, the only other time i seen him overbet like this was when he flopped quads

Lefort · #5 10-22-2007, 03:12 PM

My thoughts on this hand are kind of different, mostly just because I suck at live poker.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume he rarely LRRs with JJ-...?
So we're up against KK+, or something weird like a suited connector/gapper/etc.. with this in mind, I call pf with intentions of re-evaluating things on the flop.

On the flop, I can see him making the play with AA/KK. I don't see him making this play with any of his weird garbage hands that completely miss the flop, only [censored] that you're at best 50/50 with.

So yeah, I call pf and fold the flop... which I don't think is all that unreasonable. You don't expect your opponent to open-shove 2x+ pot like this very often.

FoxwoodsFiend · #6 10-22-2007, 10:47 PM

jay loves to do ridiculous out of line stuff every once in a while, just plays quiet then makes moves way bigger than he needs to to show because he's bored and kind of weird.

long story short, i'd snap call this based just on my read of jay which i guess you couldn't have had. also, acidknight disagrees and says he's played a lot with Jay: I played with him just about every day during WSOP last year so unless he's changed dramatically (which I doubt) I don't see how you can think this is a fold.

mikech · #7 10-23-2007, 02:38 AM

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jay loves to do ridiculous out of line stuff every once in a while

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qft. i call this.

binions · #8 10-23-2007, 12:20 PM

Jay starts the hand with 2100 in a 10-20 game. This is a bit of an awkard stack size UTG for AA-QQ + AK to make an initial raise. You can raise it 4-5xBB, hit top pair/over pair on the flop, bet 75% pot on the flop, bet 75% pot on the turn and still potentially face pot-sized heat out of position on the river with only one pair.

As Mehta and Flynn point out, 100-150xBB is prime territory for limp re-raising with these hands to get a better stack-pot ratio. Some players only limp-reraise with AA or AA-KK. Some have a wider range. Not knowing Jay, I would assign him a range of AA-QQ + AKs and maybe JJ-TT + AK-AQs.

Pushing our QQ preflop in response to his LRR is poor. We only get called by AA-KK and maybe AKs. Calling with QQ preflop is poor. An A or K flops 35% of the time. The other 65%, he has right of first action with a pot big enough that he is virtually guaranteed to bet it. We shouldn't be calling 400 preflop and then folding very often when QQ is an overpair to the board.

IMO the answer is folding preflop. I know Bill O'Conner would agree with me. As he says, "Consider the source." Will we be folding the best of it occasionally? Yes. So what? As Kirkrr says "jacking up variance just to break even is a recipe for disaster."

If you can't learn to fold QQ preflop to an UTG limp-reraise from a good player, you are destined to get stacked over and over again with QQ when the preflop action strongly suggests AA-KK. Pretty fishy.

I have seen O'Conner fold KK preflop in the same situation, depending on the player. Folding QQ prelop is easy.

FoxwoodsFiend · #9 10-23-2007, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jay starts the hand with 2100 in a 10-20 game. This is a bit of an awkard stack size UTG for AA-QQ + AK to make an initial raise. You can raise it 4-5xBB, hit top pair/over pair on the flop, bet 75% pot on the flop, bet 75% pot on the turn and still potentially face pot-sized heat out of position on the river with only one pair.

As Mehta and Flynn point out, 100-150xBB is prime territory for limp re-raising with these hands to get a better stack-pot ratio. Some players only limp-reraise with AA or AA-KK. Some have a wider range. Not knowing Jay, I would assign him a range of AA-QQ + AKs and maybe JJ-TT + AK-AQs.

Pushing our QQ preflop in response to his LRR is poor. We only get called by AA-KK and maybe AKs. Calling with QQ preflop is poor. An A or K flops 35% of the time. The other 65%, he has right of first action with a pot big enough that he is virtually guaranteed to bet it. We shouldn't be calling 400 preflop and then folding very often when QQ is an overpair to the board.

IMO the answer is folding preflop. I know Bill O'Conner would agree with me. As he says, "Consider the source." Will we be folding the best of it occasionally? Yes. So what? As Kirkrr says "jacking up variance just to break even is a recipe for disaster."

If you can't learn to fold QQ preflop to an UTG limp-reraise from a good player, you are destined to get stacked over and over again with QQ when the preflop action strongly suggests AA-KK. Pretty fishy.

I have seen O'Conner fold KK preflop in the same situation, depending on the player. Folding QQ prelop is easy.

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post needs more name dropping and/or authority-referencing for me to feel sure that it's valid. maybe throw in what sklansky would say?

binions · #10 10-23-2007, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As Mehta and Flynn point out . . .

IMO the answer is folding preflop. I know Bill O'Conner would agree with me. As he says, "Consider the source."

[/ QUOTE ]

post needs more name dropping and/or authority-referencing for me to feel sure that it's valid. maybe throw in what sklansky would say?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got me.

I play 10-20 PLH/5-10 PLO round of each with O'Conner and others you have heard of like Carl McKelvey and Tommie Grimes et al. And I read the PNL book by Mehta and Flynn. These are some of my influences.

So sue me.