TT at Kxx flop - Page 2

birdmanj · #11 10-11-2007, 02:57 PM

I'm not a big fan of the 3-bet before the flop. I think folding it wouldn't be a bad idea. There is too much that might have you beat. If you don't fold, then a bet into him after the flop would be better than a check. If he raises you, then he's sitting on something that you're an underdog to. If he just calls, I would put him on a draw. Let me add the caveat that I'm still a fairly new poker player. So feel free to point out where my reasoning might not be sound. Thanks.

j

bozlax · #12 10-11-2007, 04:44 PM

Bah, fold the flop. You're getting 14:1 on a 22:1 call, given a pf capping range of JJ+/AK. If Villan is a nutbag, you'll find out soon enough to exploit it later.

bozlax · #13 10-11-2007, 04:47 PM

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I actually c/r the flop and take charge and fold to any sign of aggression by villain.

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So, you're going to c/r/f if he 3bets, c/r the flop and cold-fold the turn if he donks, and c/r the flop and b/f the turn when he c/r's you? Do you see why this might not be an optimal line? Being in charge is over-rated, dunno why so many women fixate on it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

bozlax · #14 10-11-2007, 04:49 PM

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I think it's close, but I think a call is reasonable.

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Say you hit your ten on the turn. You raise his bet, he calls and c/c's the river. So, you got 3bb out of him after making the 14:1 call, meaning you're getting paid 20:1. The call is (Edited to add: "worse than") 22:1. There is no way for you to make up enough bets to make this reasonable.

bozlax · #15 10-11-2007, 04:59 PM

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I think folding it wouldn't be a bad idea.

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Stop thinking like this. An unknown open-raises in MP3, giving him a stealing range, not a "normal" raising range. The cold-call from the Button is less of a warning sign than a big "Free Money" sign hanging around his neck.

There are situations where you might want to cool-call this and c/r a favorable flop, but as a general rule you're happier 3bombing preflop to drive out the BB and get yourself 3-ways with a thief and a player that hates money. Had BTN 3-bet you could fold, or with a read that MP3 never, ever gets out of line pf, but short of that folding is very, very bad.

And, no, you can't consider folding to his range-defining cap pf, because at that point you're getting 12:1 and you're better than 8:1 to hit your set on the flop.

bellatrix · #16 10-11-2007, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I actually c/r the flop and take charge and fold to any sign of aggression by villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're going to c/r/f if he 3bets, c/r the flop and cold-fold the turn if he donks, and c/r the flop and b/f the turn when he c/r's you? Do you see why this might not be an optimal line? Being in charge is over-rated, dunno why so many women fixate on it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Yes, that's my line, because most of the time I'm only paying 1SB for my aggression in a pot that's already 14SB large.

I know that I'm behind most hand ranges here, but does villain know this? I 3-bet, after all, he has to consider my hand ranges, too. Will he call down his QQ all the way here, how about JJ? And I have a BDFD, which might be good. And I still have the 22-1 on my T [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

BTW, this is flop play and that turn card sucks majorly. And I know my c/r is going to backfire most of the time, but I think 10% of the time it might work.

*Edit* I can't do math. I'm paying 1BB, of course. It's close now, but I still like it... Perhaps you're right. Mhmmm, gotta think a bit more what the folding equity is here.

bozlax · #17 10-11-2007, 05:34 PM

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Yes, that's my line, because most of the time I'm only paying 1SB for my aggression in a pot that's already 14SB large.

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I'm not sure what you mean. I agree that most of the time you're paying (it's 2SB, btw), because you're a 7:4 dog to his range, but I don't understand how that makes raise > fold.

a) Those times that he does have KK+/AK, it's either going to be 3 bets you pay on the flop because you've just made the pot big enough to call his 3bet, or 4 bets because you bet prior to his raising your azz on the turn.

b) Just off the cuff, you have to assume that he'll fold QQ/JJ > 75% of the time because if he just calls you down that's 2 more bets you lose. (That's just a top-of-my-head number, but I think it makes the point because I don't think .5/1 Villans are folding pps in blind-battles > 50% of the time, regardless.)

Edit: Sorry, my earlier post talked about cold-folding the turn...you never have that option because you're OOP, so it's always going to be b/f.

Edit 2: Oopsie, if he calls down it costs you 4 bets...we're talking SB since we still on the flop.

bellatrix · #18 10-11-2007, 05:41 PM

Boz, I think you're right.
Somehow I was fixated on 1SB, it is of course 2SB. I thought anything over 10-1 would give me enough fold equity + my weak 2 outer + my weak BDFD to raise. But it's not 10-1, it's about 7-1. This might be ok on a shorthanded 5/10 6max table (where his hand range rises dramatically), but not at .5/1 where fold equity is so low.

neurotiq · #19 10-11-2007, 05:43 PM

I c/f flop. The only hand you were beating preflop is AK and that hand just hit. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Dankenstein · #20 10-11-2007, 06:05 PM

:g:
Not sure about folding the flop. With it being capped preflop I would put Villain's range on mostly hands that have you beat JJ+ AK, although I have seen some people occaisionally play medium pocket pairs with that sort of aggression. With that said I would probably call the flop and re-evaluate on the turn. with this turn I think I would definitely fold.