Weird situation in sit n go

[bernie]

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The rule for exposed hands in tourney play is usually a time penalty. Sometimes an innocent mistake may warrant a warning. This rule applies until it is heads up (i.e. two players left in tourney) when it then is like a cash game and anybody can expose their hand at any time.

A hand is NEVER declared dead when exposed.

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In some rooms, if you expose them in a tourney(with action still possible), your hand is dead. I believe that's the rule in my room.

I'm not sure if rooms that do this consider SnGs the same as tourneys in that regard.

b

[bernie]

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They have the betting out of turn rule wrong as well. A bet or raise out of turn only has to remain there if there is a fold by the player who was skipped. If the skipped player calls or raises, the out of turn player can pull his bet back and reconsider (and then probably get a warning at the end of the hand).

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I thought a call or raise out of turn had to remain there if there was no change in action. So it has to remain there whether the person skipped folds or calls and it can be pulled back only when the skipped player raises. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Here is the rule from Robert's Rules of Poker. Of courese, a card room can have a different local rule but this is most common.

10. Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn may be ruled binding if there is no bet, call, or raise by an intervening player acting after the infraction has been committed.

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Key word is: Deliberately.

That's where that wonderful gray area comes in.

b

[bav]

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10. Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn may be ruled binding if there is no bet, call, or raise by an intervening player acting after the infraction has been committed.

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Key word is: Deliberately.

That's where that wonderful gray area comes in.

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Hmmm... I read that differently. The first sentence says deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. Fine. That's one thought. The next couple sentences say if you act out of turn (doesn't say deliberately), these are the consequences.

So I claim Robert intended to state that deliberately acting out of turn is grounds for you to be 86'd or otherwise penalized. Further, that acting out of turn, deliberately or otherwise, carries these consequences.

But I am not a poker rules lawyer. If he does mean my reading of it, I think he should put the sentence about deliberately acting out of turn last. First tell us in section 10 about acting out of turn and what the consequences are. Then tell us that doing this deliberately, rather than through negligence, is unacceptable.

[PantsOnFire]

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10. Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn may be ruled binding if there is no bet, call, or raise by an intervening player acting after the infraction has been committed.

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Key word is: Deliberately.

That's where that wonderful gray area comes in.

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Hmmm... I read that differently. The first sentence says deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. Fine. That's one thought. The next couple sentences say if you act out of turn (doesn't say deliberately), these are the consequences.

So I claim Robert intended to state that deliberately acting out of turn is grounds for you to be 86'd or otherwise penalized. Further, that acting out of turn, deliberately or otherwise, carries these consequences.

But I am not a poker rules lawyer. If he does mean my reading of it, I think he should put the sentence about deliberately acting out of turn last. First tell us in section 10 about acting out of turn and what the consequences are. Then tell us that doing this deliberately, rather than through negligence, is unacceptable.

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That's the way I read it as well.

Deliberately acting out of turn is a form of angle-shooting by trying to get reactions or by discouraging raises or betting.

If you innocently act out of turn, then basically if there are folds in front of you, your bet stands since that was obviously your intention. And if somebody does make an action, then you should be able to take your bet back and reconsider. It seems to be a very fair rule.

[bernie]

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10. Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn may be ruled binding if there is no bet, call, or raise by an intervening player acting after the infraction has been committed.

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Key word is: Deliberately.

That's where that wonderful gray area comes in.

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Hmmm... I read that differently. The first sentence says deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. Fine. That's one thought. The next couple sentences say if you act out of turn (doesn't say deliberately), these are the consequences.

So I claim Robert intended to state that deliberately acting out of turn is grounds for you to be 86'd or otherwise penalized. Further, that acting out of turn, deliberately or otherwise, carries these consequences.



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But doesn't the initial sentence of the rule pretty much lead into the explanation? They're not exclusive of each other. Which is why it's disgressionary. Why else would they put in the word 'deliberate'.

C'mon, you know there's a big difference between a common mistake that happens and an angle shooter that's doing it.

b

[bav]

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C'mon, you know there's a big difference between a common mistake that happens and an angle shooter that's doing it.

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Of course. That's why deliberately doing it is unacceptable. But whether you do it on purpose or otherwise, there do need to be rules to control it. If you say "raise" out of turn, and then three people fold in front of you, is it ok for you to then fold? Nope--your out-of-turn action, accidental though it may have been, has impacted the play. It's not ok to then fold. Further, you can't say "fold" out of turn and then when 3 people in front of you limp in proclaim "gee--I didn't know there'd be so many callers--I'm all in".

And the TDA tourney rules for 2007 now spell this out in very specific detail. If you act out of turn, you WILL be bound to that if the action hasn't changed when it reaches you. And they spell out that checks, calls, and folds are not action-changing (rule 30).

[PantsOnFire]

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But doesn't the initial sentence of the rule pretty much lead into the explanation? They're not exclusive of each other. Which is why it's disgressionary. Why else would they put in the word 'deliberate'.

C'mon, you know there's a big difference between a common mistake that happens and an angle shooter that's doing it.

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This may all be true but I read the rule as applying equally whether it was deliberate or not.

The first sentence I would take to imply that some other action can be taken on you after the hand is over, like a time out or a complete removal from the table or premises.

I do agree it's not well written but I see no grey area.

[lmcjaho]

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And the TDA tourney rules for 2007 now spell this out in very specific detail. If you act out of turn, you WILL be bound to that if the action hasn't changed when it reaches you. And they spell out that checks, calls, and folds are not action-changing (rule 30).

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Do you have a link to this? For some silly reason the tournaments around here mostly use this stupid rule that a bet out of turn means the player MAY NOT bet when it gets to him if checked around (basically he LOSES his chance to bet if he does it out of turn) which I find both retarded and ripe for angle shooting IMO and I would like to help educate the floor about the proper ruling...

[bav]

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And the TDA tourney rules for 2007 now spell this out in very specific detail. If you act out of turn, you WILL be bound to that if the action hasn't changed when it reaches you. And they spell out that checks, calls, and folds are not action-changing (rule 30).

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Do you have a link to this? For some silly reason the tournaments around here mostly use this stupid rule that a bet out of turn means the player MAY NOT bet when it gets to him if checked around (basically he LOSES his chance to bet if he does it out of turn) which I find both retarded and ripe for angle shooting IMO and I would like to help educate the floor about the proper ruling...

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http://www.pokertda.com/rules.htm

[lmcjaho]

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http://www.pokertda.com/rules.htm

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Thanks bav.