What to people have against Razz?

[Al Mirpuri]

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A few years back, when the Series was still at Binion's, the live razz games would sometimes be played with a "high card brings it in, low card must raise" rule. This created a fair bit more action, and was a lot of fun. This structure created many situations where the guy with the open King on 3rd would feel stiffed in and would chase--more multiway pots. Good stuff.

I hear that Casino Arizona also used to spread razz with this structure--don't know if that's still the case.

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Interesting rule. If there is a raise before it gets to the small card does the small card still have to raise or is it allowed to fold/call/raise?

[SteelWheel]

Generally, the rule in stud games like this, where there is some kind of forced raise structure, is that players "in-between" are not allowed to raise until after the forced raise has been made in turn. You just call the bring-in, and wait for the forced raise--when it gets back to you, you can stick in your raise at that point.

[Phat Mack]

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Razz is probably one of the easiest games for hand reading, why do you think Sklansky used more razz examples than anything else in Theory of Poker?

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Not only that, but it's one of the easiest games for learning how to typecast players. For example, given enough hands, you'll know exactly how often a player bluffs.

Having said that, the problem with razz is that the learning curve is fairly steep. Persistent players don't remain fish for long.

In live play, when the players are knowledgeable, razz is voted out of the lineup fairly quickly if there's no action.

[SGspecial]

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I thought this was more of a HORSE question....

I sent an e-mail to Wilson SW and asked them if they had plans to make a Razz product, and if they did, did they plan to make a HORSE product. I really see a market.

I don't know if anyone (other than probably Mason) agrees with me that the current NL cash game boom is unsustainable. And when NL is over and limit reigns supreme again, I don't know if anyone agrees with me that HORSE will be the dominant game, particularly on the internet.

All I know is I'm enjoying the NL cash game craze now. Wonder how long it will last and when the change over will be?

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There seem to be a few prominent posters who agree with your theories about HE vs. mixed games ( Link ). Razz is still fighting an uphill battle to be included tho, as shown by the fact that in Full Tilt's last FTOPS series, there was no razz only event and a HOSE one instead of HORSE. It's also still marginalized in live games, and in AC the casinos can't even spread a true HORSE game if they wanted to since razz isn't on the approved list of games in the casino commision code!

Still, most players don't really mind since they find the game either frustrating, boring, simple, or all of the above. Like any game tho, there are a variety of opinions on how to play properly and if you check a lot of the threads in the stud forum you'll find this is true. Many of the more frequent posters have had a lot of success in the game, yet very different ideas on how to play. How simple a game can it really be then?

[kutuz_off]

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OP- Razz took a nose dive in 2003 after the WSOP broadcast because it was depicted as a game of bad beats that was excruciating.

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I believe it was 2004 broadcast with TJ Cloutier winning it against Dutch Boyd and Howard Lederer. My favorite WSOP telecast ever.

I never understood one hand there where TJ and Howard as 1st and 2nd stack both knew they had same hands, and yet it went capped on 5th. It was just increasing variance while there was a third player still in the tournament.

[Al Mirpuri]

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Generally, the rule in stud games like this, where there is some kind of forced raise structure, is that players "in-between" are not allowed to raise until after the forced raise has been made in turn. You just call the bring-in, and wait for the forced raise--when it gets back to you, you can stick in your raise at that point.

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The rule gets even more interesting. Thanks for the reply.